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  1. #1126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Casting in movies is not the same as perception of age in real life. The fact is that Hollywood always casts actors who are adults as teenagers for labor law reasons and minor laws reasons, as well as story issues (such as if you write a scene of teens making out or doing it, casting adults in that scene makes more sense legally and ethically speaking than teenagers). In the case of Spider-Man 1, where the actors were meant to age up and grow out of high school by the midpoint of the first film, Raimi cast actors who were a little older (Tobey Maguire was 26 playing a teenager in the first half) with Kirsten Dunst at 19 years of age being the only actor close to the age of her character. The Garfield movies screwed up because the first movie was set entirely in high school and you had a 29 year old Garfield playing a 15-16 year old Peter and that didn't work.

    In the case of Tom Holland, he was cast to be an entirely teenage Spider-Man and the MCU trilogy was set entirely in high school. Not only does he have baby fat that makes him look too young, makeup and costume also code him as being young. So any attempt to use Holland as a reference basically codes the character as being young looking.

    So by casting a 3D Model with a resemblance to Holland (the small eyes, broad forehead, is unmistakably Holland in reference) you basically do real damage to the entire visual texture of the game. The Spider-Man game was explicitly sold and promoted as a story of an older Spider-Man in his college years with some amount of experience on his shoulders. You suddenly recast his face with a younger dude and the effect is ruined.
    Can he still have that affect of him being an older Spider-Man with just a young-looking face? I know Bubniak's face had the middle ground between young and older, but it's not like we've even seen much of Jordan's facial capture to begin with. I understand everything you're saying, and agree with some of it in fact, but I do think it's way too early to judge the entire game based off of this one clip that we've seen. While he resembles Holland a little bit, it's still not Holland: and that in and of itself creates a different experience. You also got to remember that they made this model of Peter to use for Miles Morales as well and in future Spider-Man games, so likely they'll adjust the face in that game and beyond to look older as the character ages up (he'll be 24 in MM)
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  2. #1127
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Can he still have that affect of him being an older Spider-Man with just a young-looking face? I know Bubniak's face had the middle ground between young and older, but it's not like we've even seen much of Jordan's facial capture to begin with. I understand everything you're saying, and agree with some of it in fact, but I do think it's way too early to judge the entire game based off of this one clip that we've seen. While he resembles Holland a little bit, it's still not Holland: and that in and of itself creates a different experience. You also got to remember that they made this model of Peter to use for Miles Morales as well and in future Spider-Man games, so likely they'll adjust the face in that game and beyond to look older as the character ages up (he'll be 24 in MM)
    In theory, I wouldn't have had a problem with remolding the models in Miles Morales and the third game. Video games do change renders and update models sequel to sequel and make tweaks here and there...the Batman Arkham games did that, as do Assassin's Creed. To elaborate on what I've said earlier, I am not a fan of the models and character designs of the PS4 game in general. I thought they were generic for the most part and not very expressive. Otto Octopus with Chairman Mao's hairstyle was interesting but I miss the Ditko era buzzcut bowl cut. Still it fit. The Norman Osborn design was especially weak in my view since he looked like an ugly mash between Chris Cooper and Dafoe and not in the good way, nor did they go with the Joseph Cotten look. If they were to design Norman again for the sequels, then I wouldn't have minded. In the case of Peter, he looked a bit like Garfield and had the Romita Sr. look so not an issue but I felt that they should have given him an original look all the same distinct to the game. I didn't have as much issues with Insomniac MJ as others did but I miss the dimples.

    It's just that the specific way it's done here makes me dislike it instinctively. For me and others, Spider-Man PS4 with its older Peter and so on was a respite from the "Baby Spider-Man" versions we've been getting elsewhere, including the MCU, and now even this has to be taken away from us. They have to infect something that was ours with Holland too.

    I don't dislike Tom Holland as a person and actor, but I have come to dislike his Spider-Man for what it has come to represent. It's an attempt at erasure you know. His version of Peter blatantly stole from Miles Morales. His character never carried a movie entirely by himself. He was an Iron Man legacy more than Spider-Man and his character had absolutely no shades or edges, even compared to Tobey Maguire's Peter. And now he's being shoved down the throats of PS5 consumers with the remastered version. Going forward, the original PS4 version will be relegated and buried. Any future version of the game is going to have the remastered and redesigned look updated and migrated and carried through.

  3. #1128
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Speaking of Norman, i actually wouldn't mind if they change his model either, i can't pinpoint what the problem i just don't like how he looks like. I also feel conflicted about his writing in the game, because he just seem less evil that Norman ahould be, but who knows maybe he is gonna recieve an interesting "fall from grace" arc like Otto.
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  4. #1129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It's just that the specific way it's done here makes me dislike it instinctively. For me and others, Spider-Man PS4 with its older Peter and so on was a respite from the "Baby Spider-Man" versions we've been getting elsewhere, including the MCU, and now even this has to be taken away from us. They have to infect something that was ours with Holland too.

    I don't dislike Tom Holland as a person and actor, but I have come to dislike his Spider-Man for what it has come to represent. It's an attempt at erasure you know. His version of Peter blatantly stole from Miles Morales. His character never carried a movie entirely by himself. He was an Iron Man legacy more than Spider-Man and his character had absolutely no shades or edges, even compared to Tobey Maguire's Peter. And now he's being shoved down the throats of PS5 consumers with the remastered version. Going forward, the original PS4 version will be relegated and buried. Any future version of the game is going to have the remastered and redesigned look updated and migrated and carried through.
    This.

    It's irksome because it feels psychologically intrusive.

    It's also irksome because of the slippery slope aspect. Holland's version becoming viewed as the "default" one can have long-term consequences on the character.

  5. #1130
    The Future is Now WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In theory, I wouldn't have had a problem with remolding the models in Miles Morales and the third game. Video games do change renders and update models sequel to sequel and make tweaks here and there...the Batman Arkham games did that, as do Assassin's Creed. To elaborate on what I've said earlier, I am not a fan of the models and character designs of the PS4 game in general. I thought they were generic for the most part and not very expressive. Otto Octopus with Chairman Mao's hairstyle was interesting but I miss the Ditko era buzzcut bowl cut. Still it fit. The Norman Osborn design was especially weak in my view since he looked like an ugly mash between Chris Cooper and Dafoe and not in the good way, nor did they go with the Joseph Cotten look. If they were to design Norman again for the sequels, then I wouldn't have minded. In the case of Peter, he looked a bit like Garfield and had the Romita Sr. look so not an issue but I felt that they should have given him an original look all the same distinct to the game. I didn't have as much issues with Insomniac MJ as others did but I miss the dimples.

    It's just that the specific way it's done here makes me dislike it instinctively. For me and others, Spider-Man PS4 with its older Peter and so on was a respite from the "Baby Spider-Man" versions we've been getting elsewhere, including the MCU, and now even this has to be taken away from us. They have to infect something that was ours with Holland too.

    I don't dislike Tom Holland as a person and actor, but I have come to dislike his Spider-Man for what it has come to represent. It's an attempt at erasure you know. His version of Peter blatantly stole from Miles Morales. His character never carried a movie entirely by himself. He was an Iron Man legacy more than Spider-Man and his character had absolutely no shades or edges, even compared to Tobey Maguire's Peter. And now he's being shoved down the throats of PS5 consumers with the remastered version. Going forward, the original PS4 version will be relegated and buried. Any future version of the game is going to have the remastered and redesigned look updated and migrated and carried through.
    Presented that way, I understand where you're coming from. The designs in the game were interesting, and it's something I've noticed with Spider-Man media in general across the board lately. It feels like the character designers do not have a consistent look, with everyone trying to do their own versions of the supporting casts, the villains, and Spider-Man/Peter himself. I recall how Electro in the current Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon series is so different from how the character looked in the original comics that it's almost an entirely different character. Not to mention Norman in that show, or in this game, or even in Into the Spider-Verse. I wish Marvel would sit down with these content creators and put their foot down on a single definitive look for these characters across the board so that it doesn't feel so disjointed; so I see where you are there.

    As for Holland and what he represents...I won't say that it's untrue, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they're "infecting" the Spider-Man properties with Holland. If that were the case, you could say the same about Maguire, with how the comics tried to reflect the movies and people everywhere asked "Why doesn't he have organic webs?" when the 2012 movie came out. Or how Garfield informed Peter's look during Dan Slott's 2014 series with Humberto Ramos changing the character's design in and out of the suit to look similar to Garfield. I think ultimately it's just Marvel being so keen on trying to create synergy with Peter Parker and want the brands to match. Is that always favorable? Not if you dislike the current brand. And while yes, this remodel looks similar to Holland, you gotta remember that it's not him: someone who looks similar, but not the same (interestingly, Ben Jordan could play the character on the big screen just on looks alone - he's got the John Romita Sr. look down pat). And of course that this version of Spider-Man did carry the game all by himself, and will likely do so again for Spider-Man 2.
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  6. #1131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    This.

    It's irksome because it feels psychologically intrusive.

    It's also irksome because of the slippery slope aspect. Holland's version becoming viewed as the "default" one can have long-term consequences on the character.
    As I mentioned in my post above, the "default" version of the character defaults to the current iteration at the time. This happens for a number of characters, from Christopher Reeve's Superman to Christian Bale/Ben Affleck's Batman, Robert Downey Jr.'s Iron Man, and Maguire, Garfield, and Holland's Spider-Man. The only difference with this one is that people have several issues with this current iteration. I wouldn't say it's a slippery slope, but it's an attempt to make the current version more palatable.
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  7. #1132
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I mean, my problem isn't just the age the face implies but that the old face just looked more like Peter than the current one does. Even with Holland in mind.

  8. #1133
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, my problem isn't just the age the face implies but that the old face just looked more like Peter than the current one does. Even with Holland in mind.
    Right.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Speaking of Norman, i actually wouldn't mind if they change his model either, i can't pinpoint what the problem i just don't like how he looks like. I also feel conflicted about his writing in the game, because he just seem less evil that Norman ahould be, but who knows maybe he is gonna recieve an interesting "fall from grace" arc like Otto.
    The design of Norman in the main game is a wash. He has Chris Cooper's cheeks which are a little dry and feathered but he has Dafoe's large eyes, and overall his Norman was...not to be fat-shaming here...but he looked a little wide in general. Norman Osborn should have an intimidating physical presence, the PS4 game looks like Angry Mayor Quimby. The VO was good, but in general Osborn should be a tall lean mean guy and be somewhat intimidating and we didn't get that here. The great thing about Norman in the Raimi movie was that you had Dafoe, an actor with a naturally intimidating presence, so he managed to convey that especially in the perfection that is the Thanksgiving scene. The Spectacular Norman with its classic Ditko-era Cotten look also had that intimidation game right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Holland's version becoming viewed as the "default" one can have long-term consequences on the character.
    For me as a Spider-Man, Tom Holland invites the same feeling the new SCOTUS on the bench inspires in real world terms. It's like losing a generational fight in terms of the imagination of what the character could be or should be. And I agree that Holland shouldn't be the "default" by any means.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    I wish Marvel would sit down with these content creators and put their foot down on a single definitive look for these characters across the board so that it doesn't feel so disjointed; so I see where you are there.
    To be honest I think you are standing the issue on the head. I have no problem with adaptations changing things up, but in this case it does feel Corporate Synergy is dictating and ruling over how the character is supposed to look going forward.

    As for Holland and what he represents...I won't say that it's untrue, but I wouldn't go so far as to say they're "infecting" the Spider-Man properties with Holland. If that were the case, you could say the same about Maguire, with how the comics tried to reflect the movies and people everywhere asked "Why doesn't he have organic webs?" when the 2012 movie came out. Or how Garfield informed Peter's look during Dan Slott's 2014 series with Humberto Ramos changing the character's design in and out of the suit to look similar to Garfield. I think ultimately it's just Marvel being so keen on trying to create synergy with Peter Parker and want the brands to match.
    That's not the same thing as replacing a game that sold big time two years back and replacing the character design of that model to reflect the current actor from the original game specific design. The latter feels like a Philip K. Dick corporation rewriting your memories.

    And while yes, this remodel looks similar to Holland, you gotta remember that it's not him: someone who looks similar,
    Quite obviously they cast him based on him resembling Holland and possessing his distinct features (small eyes and large forehead and somewhat youthful look) that way they can get a Holland-looking guy without having to pay licensing fees for using his likeness. It's a common trick in game development. They developers can say "look it's not based on Holland it's based on the 3D actor" and legally it skirts away. Peter Parker in the comics has expressive brown eyes, medium shaped and distinctive, not as small as Holland's. Maguire's eyes were a little bigger, Garfield was the right size, but Holland was too small...it's Goldilocks out of order.

    The render of the original game got it right, and Peter having expressive eyes was important in that story.

  9. #1134
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    Yeah, I really wish they had kept the original actor/model for Peter. I preferred his likeness.

    That being said, I kinda hope MJ is given a makeover.

  10. #1135
    The Future is Now WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Right.



    The design of Norman in the main game is a wash. He has Chris Cooper's cheeks which are a little dry and feathered but he has Dafoe's large eyes, and overall his Norman was...not to be fat-shaming here...but he looked a little wide in general. Norman Osborn should have an intimidating physical presence, the PS4 game looks like Angry Mayor Quimby. The VO was good, but in general Osborn should be a tall lean mean guy and be somewhat intimidating and we didn't get that here. The great thing about Norman in the Raimi movie was that you had Dafoe, an actor with a naturally intimidating presence, so he managed to convey that especially in the perfection that is the Thanksgiving scene. The Spectacular Norman with its classic Ditko-era Cotten look also had that intimidation game right.



    For me as a Spider-Man, Tom Holland invites the same feeling the new SCOTUS on the bench inspires in real world terms. It's like losing a generational fight in terms of the imagination of what the character could be or should be. And I agree that Holland shouldn't be the "default" by any means.



    To be honest I think you are standing the issue on the head. I have no problem with adaptations changing things up, but in this case it does feel Corporate Synergy is dictating and ruling over how the character is supposed to look going forward.



    That's not the same thing as replacing a game that sold big time two years back and replacing the character design of that model to reflect the current actor from the original game specific design. The latter feels like a Philip K. Dick corporation rewriting your memories.



    Quite obviously they cast him based on him resembling Holland and possessing his distinct features (small eyes and large forehead and somewhat youthful look) that way they can get a Holland-looking guy without having to pay licensing fees for using his likeness. It's a common trick in game development. They developers can say "look it's not based on Holland it's based on the 3D actor" and legally it skirts away. Peter Parker in the comics has expressive brown eyes, medium shaped and distinctive, not as small as Holland's. Maguire's eyes were a little bigger, Garfield was the right size, but Holland was too small...it's Goldilocks out of order.

    The render of the original game got it right, and Peter having expressive eyes was important in that story.
    So, I'm not entirely sure where the crossroads is in our opinions, so I'm just going to exit stage left here. But in either case, I hope you can eventually find some enjoyment from this version of Peter, particularly in his appearance in Miles Morales.
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  11. #1136
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    So, I'm not entirely sure where the crossroads is in our opinions, so I'm just going to exit stage left here. But in either case, I hope you can eventually find some enjoyment from this version of Peter, particularly in his appearance in Miles Morales.
    Miles Morales will be fun mostly because this Peter won't be there much by default.

  12. #1137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The design of Norman in the main game is a wash. He has Chris Cooper's cheeks which are a little dry and feathered but he has Dafoe's large eyes, and overall his Norman was...not to be fat-shaming here...but he looked a little wide in general. Norman Osborn should have an intimidating physical presence, the PS4 game looks like Angry Mayor Quimby. The VO was good, but in general Osborn should be a tall lean mean guy and be somewhat intimidating and we didn't get that here. The great thing about Norman in the Raimi movie was that you had Dafoe, an actor with a naturally intimidating presence, so he managed to convey that especially in the perfection that is the Thanksgiving scene. The Spectacular Norman with its classic Ditko-era Cotten look also had that intimidation game right.
    Maybe he'll get a physical overhaul when he injects himself with the Goblin Serum.

  13. #1138
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Maybe he'll get a physical overhaul when he injects himself with the Goblin Serum.
    We'll see.

    The other thing to consider is that when Insomniac made the first game they made it not knowing fully how successful it would be, whether they could do sequels and so on. So a lot of details they put in the first game probably wasn't something they wanted locked down but more about getting across the issues they wanted to in the time they have. The Norman they have in the first game wouldn't look good in a Goblin outfit, or work as well as a big villain on his own. Modelling Norman on Chris Cooper was a mistake to start with, that Norman was never intended to be the Goblin and wear the suit. That's what happens when you use the wrong reference without considering the context.

    The Arkham Games were similar in that the first game had stuff that the sequels would later walk back as well as other details that were unique to it. Commissioner Gordon looks way different in the third game, Arkham Knight than he did in the first two, along with a new VO.

    As I said I have nothing against redoing models in the sequels and later games, it's just that I have an issue with the PS5 remastered version changing the PS4 render and the issue with it being a Holland reference for the model when to me that goes against the entire issue that this was a grown up Peter. Also the fact that this was the Peter that millions of PS4 users, including those who bought the system just to play it, fell in love with and it's not fair to erase that for PS5 users and potentially all future retrogamers.

  14. #1139
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    As I mentioned in my post above, the "default" version of the character defaults to the current iteration at the time. This happens for a number of characters, from Christopher Reeve's Superman to Christian Bale/Ben Affleck's Batman, Robert Downey Jr.'s Iron Man, and Maguire, Garfield, and Holland's Spider-Man. The only difference with this one is that people have several issues with this current iteration. I wouldn't say it's a slippery slope, but it's an attempt to make the current version more palatable.
    That is the issue. I get why it’s happening, but it doesn’t mean it isn’t problematic. Movies do affect the way a character is perceived and the movie version of a character is the “default” version for a lot of people. It’s why everyone thought Spider-Man’s webs come out of his body, or why the average Joe thinks the Fantastic Four are lame, or why Iron Man is snarkier than he was 15 years ago and people like him for that. For better or worse, everything from a movie version’s looks to their personality and core traits can bleed into people’s general perceptions of a character.

    The reason it’s now problematic is because Holland’s Spider-Man is problematic. I know that maybe sounds inflammatory or fanboy-ish…but let’s just forget the fact we are Spider-Man fans for a second. Simply looking at Holland’s Spider-Man as a third party, the ageist and classist undertones in it are a problem when you consider the historical reality of Spider-Man being created to challenge those exact things. It would be the equivalent of sexism in Wonder Woman or racism in Black Panther. Such portrayals wouldn't be simply a "new take" or "different interpretation". They would be wrong on principle and (hopefully) people would rightfully be put off by that even if they are not diehard fans.

    That is also what makes Holland’s Spider-Man so frustrating when imported anywhere or when simply romanticized. Unlike the other two film versions, you can't write or cast your way out of the problems with MCU Spider-Man. The ageism, classism, and whitewashing lie at the core of its foundation. You can maybe gradually eliminate the first two from his roots...but then you would still be left with the whitewashing of Miles Morales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    For me as a Spider-Man, Tom Holland invites the same feeling the new SCOTUS on the bench inspires in real world terms. It's like losing a generational fight in terms of the imagination of what the character could be or should be. And I agree that Holland shouldn't be the "default" by any means.
    A better analogy for me is Silver Age Superman. The 50's stripped the character of what made him great in the Golden Age and turned him into the opposite of what he was conceptualized as. That is essentially what MCU Spider-Man did, except it happened in the movies rather than the comics.

    Superman still hasn't fully recovered from that partly because of WB's treatment but also cuz of a generation of writers/fans who grew up with that version and associate it with the character in spite of how much they may complain about others thinking of Superman as dated.

    That is the worst-case scenario I see with Spider-Man. Will it actually happen? I'm not willing to go that far yet. Spider-Man as we know him was a lot more ingrained into our culture in the mid-2010's than Superman was in 1952, and has had plenty of successful film/TV versions prior to Holland's. He is significantly more "protected" from a corporate reinvention like that than Superman was, if that makes sense.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 10-01-2020 at 01:17 PM.

  15. #1140
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    We'll see.

    The other thing to consider is that when Insomniac made the first game they made it not knowing fully how successful it would be, whether they could do sequels and so on. So a lot of details they put in the first game probably wasn't something they wanted locked down but more about getting across the issues they wanted to in the time they have. The Norman they have in the first game wouldn't look good in a Goblin outfit, or work as well as a big villain on his own. Modelling Norman on Chris Cooper was a mistake to start with, that Norman was never intended to be the Goblin and wear the suit. That's what happens when you use the wrong reference without considering the context.

    The Arkham Games were similar in that the first game had stuff that the sequels would later walk back as well as other details that were unique to it. Commissioner Gordon looks way different in the third game, Arkham Knight than he did in the first two, along with a new VO.

    As I said I have nothing against redoing models in the sequels and later games, it's just that I have an issue with the PS5 remastered version changing the PS4 render and the issue with it being a Holland reference for the model when to me that goes against the entire issue that this was a grown up Peter. Also the fact that this was the Peter that millions of PS4 users, including those who bought the system just to play it, fell in love with and it's not fair to erase that for PS5 users and potentially all future retrogamers.
    To be fair, it almost became a franchise tradition to change Gordon's VA in every subsequent iteration of the Arkham universe. He has like five different VA's across the entire franchise .

    They teased the Goblin gear in the first game so I think it's more of figuring out the rest of the way of getting from Point A to Point B.

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