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  1. #1141
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Polygon has an article on the backlash:

    https://www.polygon.com/2020/10/1/21...games-sony-ps4


    Got pretty big pretty fast. Some toxicity in terms of harassing Ben Jordan which isn't cool at all.

    Still this is pretty vocal and loud, and I think there might be some kind of walkback to this. Like maybe an optional download to have the original model in PS5 Remastered or an optional skin. Customization is a big deal for developers and marketers after all.

    Game director responded to the backlash:
    https://twitter.com/bryanintihar/sta...099521/photo/1

    This whole face didn't match actor's voice thing just doesn't make any damn sense as an excuse. It smacks of the beyond lame (and now provably cynical) claim by Ubisoft that "women are too hard to animate". This feels like a marketing enforced stunt that the developers have to follow on.

  2. #1142
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    That's terrible that people are harassing the new actor.

    I think there may have been less intense backlash if Peter was just redesigned/recast for Spider-man 2. It's not entirely uncommon for character models to change from one game to the next. But having such a drastic redesign in a "remaster" of the first game (where the other character models essentially remain untouched) really makes it stick out like a sore thumb.

  3. #1143
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    We'll see.

    The other thing to consider is that when Insomniac made the first game they made it not knowing fully how successful it would be, whether they could do sequels and so on. So a lot of details they put in the first game probably wasn't something they wanted locked down but more about getting across the issues they wanted to in the time they have. The Norman they have in the first game wouldn't look good in a Goblin outfit, or work as well as a big villain on his own. Modelling Norman on Chris Cooper was a mistake to start with, that Norman was never intended to be the Goblin and wear the suit. That's what happens when you use the wrong reference without considering the context.

    The Arkham Games were similar in that the first game had stuff that the sequels would later walk back as well as other details that were unique to it. Commissioner Gordon looks way different in the third game, Arkham Knight than he did in the first two, along with a new VO.

    As I said I have nothing against redoing models in the sequels and later games, it's just that I have an issue with the PS5 remastered version changing the PS4 render and the issue with it being a Holland reference for the model when to me that goes against the entire issue that this was a grown up Peter. Also the fact that this was the Peter that millions of PS4 users, including those who bought the system just to play it, fell in love with and it's not fair to erase that for PS5 users and potentially all future retrogamers.
    How did you feel about Peter apparently having more respect for Norman in this continuity that any other interaction?

    Also, i find hilarious how Gordon in Arkham apparently aged backwards, he has whithe hair in Asylum, but it suddenly like 10 years younger in Knight
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  4. #1144
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Polygon has an article on the backlash:

    https://www.polygon.com/2020/10/1/21...games-sony-ps4


    Got pretty big pretty fast. Some toxicity in terms of harassing Ben Jordan which isn't cool at all.

    Still this is pretty vocal and loud, and I think there might be some kind of walkback to this. Like maybe an optional download to have the original model in PS5 Remastered or an optional skin. Customization is a big deal for developers and marketers after all.

    Game director responded to the backlash:
    https://twitter.com/bryanintihar/sta...099521/photo/1

    This whole face didn't match actor's voice thing just doesn't make any damn sense as an excuse. It smacks of the beyond lame (and now provably cynical) claim by Ubisoft that "women are too hard to animate". This feels like a marketing enforced stunt that the developers have to follow on.
    The harrasment is awfull and those people should feel ashamed of themselves.

    On the other side, their explanation still doesn't fly.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
    Nobody does it better by Jeff Loveness

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  5. #1145
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    How did you feel about Peter apparently having more respect for Norman in this continuity that any other interaction?
    To be honest, I don't think Peter respects Norman all that much in the game. I think Peter is personally conflicted about Norman, him being dad to his best friend and always nice to Peter on a personal level, but I don't think he respects Norman as much as a scientist, businessman, or politician in the game. For Peter, it's the sense of "that bad man who screws over everyone was always personally nice to you" and I think people have had that kind of interaction at some time or another, either at school or work.

    Like when Peter hears all the horror stories about Norman from Otto, and then from the Michael Morbius-employee of Oscorp, or hearing him partnering with Fisk...he doesn't react with any disappointment or disillusionment about Norman not measuring up to his beliefs. Mary Jane, who is basically Peter's conscience in the game, also knew Norman as her friend's Dad and she doesn't hesitate condemning his gauche interior design. So I think both Peter and MJ feel Norman is a terrible mayor and a ruthless businessman but they also see him as tragic and nuanced.

    Also, i find hilarious how Gordon in Arkham apparently aged backwards, he has whithe hair in Asylum, but it suddenly like 10 years younger in Knight
    Benjamin Button had a vogue...but obviously, Gordon has a much bigger role as a supporting character in AK with more speaking lines than he did in the first game (in the second game, he appears at the very end and that's it). So that explains and justifies the new model. Also the third game had a graphic upgrade.

  6. #1146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    To be honest, I don't think Peter respects Norman all that much in the game. I think Peter is personally conflicted about Norman, him being dad to his best friend and always nice to Peter on a personal level, but I don't think he respects Norman as much as a scientist, businessman, or politician in the game. For Peter, it's the sense of "that bad man who screws over everyone was always personally nice to you" and I think people have had that kind of interaction at some time or another, either at school or work.

    Like when Peter hears all the horror stories about Norman from Otto, and then from the Michael Morbius-employee of Oscorp, or hearing him partnering with Fisk...he doesn't react with any disappointment or disillusionment about Norman not measuring up to his beliefs. Mary Jane, who is basically Peter's conscience in the game, also knew Norman as her friend's Dad and she doesn't hesitate condemning his gauche interior design. So I think both Peter and MJ feel Norman is a terrible mayor and a ruthless businessman but they also see him as tragic and nuanced.



    Benjamin Button had a vogue...but obviously, Gordon has a much bigger role as a supporting character in AK with more speaking lines than he did in the first game (in the second game, he appears at the very end and that's it). So that explains and justifies the new model. Also the third game had a graphic upgrade.
    And let's not forget that Norman's experiments in trying to cure Harry of the same disease that killed his wife/Harry's mother resulted in a vengeful Mister Negative that set the stage for all the death and devastation that came about in the storyline. Also, if you take the prequel novel Hostile Takeover as canon, not only was Norman working with Fisk, his earlier attempts to recreate Spider-Man's powers resulted in the creation of a sadistic killer calling himself "Blood Spider" that nearly destroyed Spider-Man's reputation. With those in mind, I doubt Peter would have much, if any, respect left for Norman if he'd ever felt that before.
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  7. #1147
    The Future is Now WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    That is the issue. I get why it’s happening, but it doesn’t mean it isn’t problematic. Movies do affect the way a character is perceived and the movie version of a character is the “default” version for a lot of people. It’s why everyone thought Spider-Man’s webs come out of his body, or why the average Joe thinks the Fantastic Four are lame, or why Iron Man is snarkier than he was 15 years ago and people like him for that. For better or worse, everything from a movie version’s looks to their personality and core traits can bleed into people’s general perceptions of a character.

    The reason it’s now problematic is because Holland’s Spider-Man is problematic. I know that maybe sounds inflammatory or fanboy-ish…but let’s just forget the fact we are Spider-Man fans for a second. Simply looking at Holland’s Spider-Man as a third party, the ageist and classist undertones in it are a problem when you consider the historical reality of Spider-Man being created to challenge those exact things. It would be the equivalent of sexism in Wonder Woman or racism in Black Panther. Such portrayals wouldn't be simply a "new take" or "different interpretation". They would be wrong on principle and (hopefully) people would rightfully be put off by that even if they are not diehard fans.

    That is also what makes Holland’s Spider-Man so frustrating when imported anywhere or when simply romanticized. Unlike the other two film versions, you can't write or cast your way out of the problems with MCU Spider-Man. The ageism, classism, and whitewashing lie at the core of its foundation. You can maybe gradually eliminate the first two from his roots...but then you would still be left with the whitewashing of Miles Morales.
    Again though: none of those issues have to do with this current game. The development team at Insomniac answer to Sony and Marvel, yes, but that decision to change the character's design (from what we know) came directly from Insomniac. If they wanted to make his face look like Holland's (which it really doesn't), then so what? It's their choice. Is it the wisest choice for a recent remaster? Probably not, I'll concede to that. But all the other issues you listed don't really apply here.

    I think ultimately, in speaking to those issues you mentioned of whitewashing, ageism, and classism (I don't know where that came from), are projections of people's fears towards this version of the character being a "permanent" iteration in the movies for awhile. I understand about Miles, but we literally just got a successful Miles Morales Spider-Man movie that had massive critical acclaim, worldwide fame (not monetarily, but in the hearts and minds), and won an Academy Award, as well as the prospect of the new game that is literally all about Miles and his journey. I don't think Miles is in any danger of losing his reputation or character traits or having them stolen anytime soon (rather, they're adding to the foundation Bendis built). So this large amount of backlash towards Holland's interpretation seems really unwarranted, in my opinion.
    Catching thieves just like flies for 58 years!!

  8. #1148
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    How did you feel about Peter apparently having more respect for Norman in this continuity that any other interaction?

    Also, i find hilarious how Gordon in Arkham apparently aged backwards, he has whithe hair in Asylum, but it suddenly like 10 years younger in Knight
    I'm kind of surprised how little Peter and Norman interacted in the game. Like, there was this cautious but respectful interaction until all this stuff Norman did comes to light but we never really see them directly interact about it.

    I did like that scene of Norman not giving Otto the satisfaction and then smirking when Spider-Man shows up.

  9. #1149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Spider-Man game was explicitly sold and promoted as a story of an older Spider-Man in his college years with some amount of experience on his shoulders. You suddenly recast his face with a younger dude and the effect is ruined.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    For me and others, Spider-Man PS4 with its older Peter and so on was a respite from the "Baby Spider-Man" versions we've been getting elsewhere, including the MCU, and now even this has to be taken away from us. They have to infect something that was ours with Holland too.
    I 100% agree, my friend. Plus, I feel that Yuri's voice matched well with Bubniac's face.

    I don't dislike Holland's portrayal of the character, but I definitely prefer the late 20's Peter who's been out of high school for years now in the main 616.

    Tobey is my number #1 favorite, followed by Garfield and then Holland last.
    Last edited by Flash Fan #1; 10-02-2020 at 12:07 AM.
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  10. #1150
    Mighty Member Jman27's Avatar
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    sucks that the recasting is being blame on Holland just cause he is the current live action spiderman should we be blaming Insomniac not the actor?
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

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  11. #1151
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jman27 View Post
    sucks that the recasting is being blame on Holland just cause he is the current live action spiderman should we be blaming Insomniac not the actor?
    The only one we need to blame is Marvel Corporate for their constant shoving it down the throats that Spider-Man needs to be some teenybopper that bear in mind, neither Stan Lee nor Steve Ditko ever intended him to be**. This constant fixation on a young Spider-Man to the point that the old joke of Marvel one day telling the adventurers of Spider-Foetus is now more and more plausible...is responsible for this mess. This entire thing is a product of the 2000s, and it's despairing that a 2000s era conception of Spider-Man is supplanting the original, actual, true, and real Spider-Man from the 60s' to the 90s.

    It's responsible for Marvel introducing Holland's Spider-Man as a teenage fanboy without any edge, it's responsible for them casting a character actor who plainly can't lead a movie on his own in the role of their greatest solo hero, so they have to him constantly interact and bounce around an established adult lead for all his major emotional scenes further reinforcing the dependency.

    And now it's responsible quite obviously for the casting of a Holland-Lookalike as a 3D model for a game that was originally promoted as a break from the recent trend.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 10-02-2020 at 07:25 AM.

  12. #1152
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The only one we need to blame is Marvel Corporate for their constant shoving it down the throats that Spider-Man needs to be some teenybopper that bear in mind, neither Stan Lee nor Steve Ditko ever intended him to be**. This constant fixation on a young Spider-Man to the point that the old joke of Marvel one day telling the adventurers of Spider-Foetus is now more and more plausible...is responsible for this mess. This entire thing is a product of the 2000s, and it's despairing that a 2000s era conception of Spider-Man is supplanting the original, actual, true, and real Spider-Man from the 60s' to the 90s.

    It's responsible for Marvel introducing Holland's Spider-Man as a teenage fanboy without any edge, it's responsible for them casting a character actor who plainly can't lead a movie on his own in the role of their greatest solo hero, so they have to him constantly interact and bounce around an established adult lead for all his major emotional scenes further reinforcing the dependency.

    And now it's responsible quite obviously for the casting of a Holland-Lookalike as a 3D model for a game that was originally promoted as a break from the recent trend.
    I think if anyone Sony would've mandated more than Marvel Entertainment.

    (I think Holland leads the movie as much as anybody else does in the MCU).

  13. #1153
    The Future is Now WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The only one we need to blame is Marvel Corporate for their constant shoving it down the throats that Spider-Man needs to be some teenybopper that bear in mind, neither Stan Lee nor Steve Ditko ever intended him to be**. This constant fixation on a young Spider-Man to the point that the old joke of Marvel one day telling the adventurers of Spider-Foetus is now more and more plausible...is responsible for this mess. This entire thing is a product of the 2000s, and it's despairing that a 2000s era conception of Spider-Man is supplanting the original, actual, true, and real Spider-Man from the 60s' to the 90s.

    It's responsible for Marvel introducing Holland's Spider-Man as a teenage fanboy without any edge, it's responsible for them casting a character actor who plainly can't lead a movie on his own in the role of their greatest solo hero, so they have to him constantly interact and bounce around an established adult lead for all his major emotional scenes further reinforcing the dependency.

    And now it's responsible quite obviously for the casting of a Holland-Lookalike as a 3D model for a game that was originally promoted as a break from the recent trend.
    Oh, come on, Jack. I know you think rationally, not emotionally, and Jman27 is right: Marvel is not to blame here. The official story was that Insomniac needed a face that matched Lowenthal's face. That what was said. All else is just conjecture. Saying that this is Marvel's tactic to supplant the 1960s version of the character is just wrong for this conversation (especially as this board points out constantly, that supplanting happened a long time ago).

    The actual actor looks 23 on up, and, like I keep mentioning to you but seems to be getting ignored, we've only seen one scene. I'm sure Insomniac saw something in the young man that we don't, which is why they picked him.

    As for your disdain of Holland, I seriously question what you believe is the true version of Spider-Man. But again, that conversation has no place here because it's the video game team and design, not the MCU and Sony. We've said before that the movie and gaming divisions of Sony are wildly different and are autonomous on their own. Can one influence the other? Sure. Do we know if that happened here? No.

    So I'm pleading with you: come down from the increased emotional state you're portraying and just think about this in a rational and calm state. Please?
    Catching thieves just like flies for 58 years!!

  14. #1154
    Mighty Member Jman27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The only one we need to blame is Marvel Corporate for their constant shoving it down the throats that Spider-Man needs to be some teenybopper that bear in mind, neither Stan Lee nor Steve Ditko ever intended him to be**. This constant fixation on a young Spider-Man to the point that the old joke of Marvel one day telling the adventurers of Spider-Foetus is now more and more plausible...is responsible for this mess. This entire thing is a product of the 2000s, and it's despairing that a 2000s era conception of Spider-Man is supplanting the original, actual, true, and real Spider-Man from the 60s' to the 90s.

    It's responsible for Marvel introducing Holland's Spider-Man as a teenage fanboy without any edge, it's responsible for them casting a character actor who plainly can't lead a movie on his own in the role of their greatest solo hero, so they have to him constantly interact and bounce around an established adult lead for all his major emotional scenes further reinforcing the dependency.

    And now it's responsible quite obviously for the casting of a Holland-Lookalike as a 3D model for a game that was originally promoted as a break from the recent trend.
    isnt that the whole point of comics though different writers different takes same with fans.
    Last edited by Jman27; 10-02-2020 at 08:14 AM.
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  15. #1155
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    https://twitter.com/getwild23/status...526889989?s=19

    we did it boys the default suit isnt orange anymore
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