Now that DB Super is over, has Goku surpassed Beerus?

[Anarchist]

Question is in the title.

[The Arbiter]

Question is in the title.

Gut reaction is, yes to the anime. Unsure with the Manga. Either way its still close probably.

But even in the anime Goku is uncertain if he can easily use MUI again, which imo he absolutely needs to win.

[Cyke]

Gut reaction is, yes to the anime. Unsure with the Manga. Either way its still close probably.

But even in the anime Goku is uncertain if he can easily use MUI again, which imo he absolutely needs to win.

There might also be the issue of stamina anyway. MUI really only lasted a couple minutes at best (or less than a minute? Which, in Dragon Ball time, is two episodes).

Even if it's stronger than Beerus, Beerus in his default state can fight indefinitely (I mean, that's the definition of "default," sooo...)

[The Arbiter]

There might also be the issue of stamina anyway. MUI really only lasted a couple minutes at best (or less than a minute? Which, in Dragon Ball time, is two episodes).

Even if it's stronger than Beerus, Beerus in his default state can fight indefinitely (I mean, that's the definition of "default," sooo...)

There is also this, yes.

However, MUI was never really shown at peak performance. Goku had obliterated his stamina at least twice over, come out of false Instinct a few times and accrued significant physical injuries by the time he finally figured it out. If he was fresh and jumped straight into it, this may be a very different conversation.

Of course we can't argue what ifs on Rumbles and we can only go by what we've seen for evidence, but it is fun to think about.

[CJStriker]

I would say NO at this point since MUI, while still having questions about it, seemed like it backlashed on Goku Very Badly in episode 130 and by the end of the Super Run Goku admits he can't access anymore for now.

So really until Goku can access it with 1.) Being able to Access it Normally 2.) Not having such negative backlashes to him, Right now Goku IMO is not again Behind Jiren in Power level and Beerus as well since it took MUI to go at least even with Full Power Jiren.

[The Arbiter]

I guess the answer to this question depends on how you interpret the question.

Has MUI Goku's total power surpassed Beerus' total power? Probably yes (by a little not a huge margin imo).

But if the question is "who wins in a fight" then it may slide back in Beerus' favor for the above stated reasons. You can in fact be stronger than an opponent but still lose a fight.

See real life examples of weaker mma athletes out lasting stronger opponents based on stamina alone.

[master of read]

I guess the answer to this question depends on how you interpret the question.

Has MUI Goku's total power surpassed Beerus' total power? Probably yes (by a little not a huge margin imo).

But if the question is "who wins in a fight" then it may slide back in Beerus' favor for the above stated reasons. You can in fact be stronger than an opponent but still lose a fight.

See real life examples of weaker mma athletes out lasting stronger opponents based on stamina alone.

despite the flaws of the arc, i think that was the perfect point of the TOP. there were quite a lot of fighters weaker than goku but some of them could still mess him up due to having unique/esotaric powers that he just couldn't get around via powering up/punching really hard. there were quite a number of them who could've ruined his day if not for guys like roshi and 17.

but yeah, until goku gets a total handle on MUI, i'd said no to him being stronger than beerus.

[The Arbiter]

despite the flaws of the arc, i think that was the perfect point of the TOP. there were quite a lot of fighters weaker than goku but some of them could still mess him up due to having unique/esotaric powers that he just couldn't get around via powering up/punching really hard. there were quite a number of them who could've ruined his day if not for guys like roshi and 17.

but yeah, until goku gets a total handle on MUI, i'd said no to him being stronger than beerus.

I totally agree. The versatility of the fighters was a highlight for me as well.

Just to clarify though: Do you mean you don't believe Goku's total power to have surpassed Beerus' total power even briefly? Or did you mean, it doesn't matter if he surpassed it because the draw backs still mean he would lose a prolonged fight?

[Cyke]

Pure supposition, but I imagine that Goku wouldn't be satisfied until he's stronger than Beerus in his base form, without MUI, SSB, SSJ, etc.

Not that it has much bearing to the thread, of course. If he beats Beerus with MUI, he'll keep trying to beat him in less powerful forms.

Then there's Whis. And Vados. And the Grand Priest. etc.

[The Arbiter]

Pure supposition, but I imagine that Goku wouldn't be satisfied until he's stronger than Beerus in his base form, without MUI, SSB, SSJ, etc.

Not that it has much bearing to the thread, of course. If he beats Beerus with MUI, he'll keep trying to beat him in less powerful forms.

Then there's Whis. And Vados. And the Grand Priest. etc.

Nah, Goku has never particularly cared if he's only more powerful with a transformation vs base.

[Cyke]

Nah, Goku has never particularly cared if he's only more powerful with a transformation vs base.

Oh, he tried against Frieza in Resurrection F and Slim Buu in the build up to the tournament.

[The Arbiter]

Oh, he tried against Frieza in Resurrection F and Slim Buu in the build up to the tournament.

Well yeah. He often doesn't go all out right away. He gauges them and usually tries to match it for the purposes of sport or competition. Like how he was only ssj2 against Gohan until he demanded he go all out.

My point is, he doesn't view his own transformations as cheating. He is fine accepting them as his own power and therefore satisfied if he uses then to beat an opponent and prove his strength

[master of read]

I totally agree. The versatility of the fighters was a highlight for me as well.

Just to clarify though: Do you mean you don't believe Goku's total power to have surpassed Beerus' total power even briefly? Or did you mean, it doesn't matter if he surpassed it because the draw backs still mean he would lose a prolonged fight?

i meant more in overall combat abilities. is MUI goku stronger than beerus? it's debatable, hence the thread. but could he win against beerus with it? as is, no. as whis said, goku paid the price for evolving too fast, too soon. so beerus, having far greater experience fighting that level of power for FAAAAAR longer than goku, could beat MUI goku simply by running out the clock and letting goku's body give out.

but it's still hard for me to say for or against.

[Cyke]

Well yeah. He often doesn't go all out right away. He gauges them and usually tries to match it for the purposes of sport or competition. Like how he was only ssj2 against Gohan until he demanded he go all out.

My point is, he doesn't view his own transformations as cheating. He is fine accepting them as his own power and therefore satisfied if he uses then to beat an opponent and prove his strength

Wait, where have I said that he ever viewed his power ups as cheating? He's not above putting handicaps on himself to test himself in battle (heck, that was half the reason for him wearing weighted clothing in DB), and yes, he gauges himself and his opponent by starting slow. I don't see how that contradicts his desire to keep pushing himself so that he can exceed tough enemies without expending as much stamina as before. That's improvement.

If you were a powerful enemy and Goku finds that he's improved so much that he can surpass that enemy with fewer powerups, he sees that as advancement of his own training. There's nothing wrong or arrogant about that, because he sees his opponents as impressive benchmarks. He also tries to encourage friendly rivals to do their best -- moreso, he'll also congratulate his friends or opponents if he has to push himself to use a power up to gain a more decisive upper hand, as we saw when he recruited the other members.

[moonknight11]

MUI Goku would kick the **** out of Beerus imo. It'd be a more one sided beat down than the one he gave full power Jiren before Jiren broke his own limits and powered up.