X-Men Red #3 Spoilers and Review

[BBeeryan]

What I am going to say is I hope he does not devalue Cassandra's power levels for Jean Grey. Nova is a much more powerful psi than Jean, and I hope she doesn't get PIS'd to prop up Jean. That said, the only thing I can imagine Nova fearing from Jean is she likely believes that Jean's team has a good shot at foiling her plans...whatever they are. However, again, to say that Nova would fear Jean in psychic combat would be total PIS.



I would also check Jean's feats in canon WITHOUT the Phoenix Force to get a good estimation of what her power levels REALLY are. She's nowhere near as powerful as many state her to be.

Rutog I trust your judgment as far as feats are concerned because you put Storm at the appropriate level that Len Wein and Dave Cockrum intended for her to be. Do you care to enlighten me more? I do know that Jean Grey got her upgrade of Phoenix so as not to be completely dwarfed in power. In that regard, I've always assumed that they operated at the same levels. Once Jean taps into Phoenix, of course. So are you implying that Jean Grey should be drastically out of her league in regards to the upcoming battle considering that Jean is without Phoenix (the boost in power needed to match baseline Storm) and current Storm is now boosted even higher as Hadari Yao, The All-Goddess who Preserves the Balance of all Natural Things?

[Hizashi]

LOL. Just get ready because it's so obviously gonna happen. Nova said exactly that, "You're not the Phoenix anymore!" on the first issue which couldn't be more obvious foreshadowing lmao.

I agree. The book still has a few mysteries, but the trajectory couldn’t be more obvious, especially with the context of Jean’s return.

[Havok83]

The truth is we dont know where Jean's power levels currently stand. She's only appeared in 3 issues post resurrection and hasnt really been pushed to her limits. She was already incredibly powerful so she might very well have gotten a boost. We wont know until Taylor defines her and thats what this impending battle with Nova is likely to do.

[rutog98]

What? Jean never used the Phoenix against Nova. During their first encounter Nova attacked Jean psychically (No Phoenix manifestation) and the second time she used Cerebra to breakdown Xavier's mind and hide it in the minds of every mutant on the planet. In fact the only time the Phoenix manifested was at the very end AFTER Xavier had booted out Nova from his body and then ENTER Emma Frost with the fake Cassie body.

Unless you're somehow claiming that every instance that Jean used her powers in New X-men(without the PF manifesting) she was getting some imaginary boost from the PF?

Jean had the Phoenix Force inside of her ever since around New Mutants #120. So, when she split Xavier's psyche into 1,000,000 different people, not only did she have the PF boosting her, but she also had Cerebra boosting her abilities 10 fold. Furthermore, I recall Nova knocking Jean flat with her psychic powers, leaving her a mumbling baffoon.

What I am telling you is whenever Jean has the PF, her powers are being augmented. That's what the PF does. The fact that you have to use New X-Men stories rather than the Jean Grey stories from the 90s when she wasn't boosted by the PF shows how she really doesn't compare to Nova.

LOL. Just get ready because it's so obviously gonna happen. Nova said exactly that, "You're not the Phoenix anymore!" on the first issue which couldn't be more obvious foreshadowing lmao.

I seriously doubt it will be a one-on-one where Jean squares off against Nova. It would most likely be the entire team vs. Nova by herself given Nova doesn't have a team. So, Nova will solo Red and lose due to their teamwork. This quote from Nova as well means that the last time they crossed swords in New X-Men, Jean was indeed boosted by the PF. That said, Marvel could have Wolverine beat Silver Sufer in a fight where both characters have their normal power levels, but I won't accept those results. Jean doesn't have any feats without the PF to compare with Nova.

Rutog I trust your judgment as far as feats are concerned because you put Storm at the appropriate level that Len Wein and Dave Cockrum intended for her to be. Do you care to enlighten me more? I do know that Jean Grey got her upgrade of Phoenix so as not to be completely dwarfed in power. In that regard, I've always assumed that they operated at the same levels. Once Jean taps into Phoenix, of course. So are you implying that Jean Grey should be drastically out of her league in regards to the upcoming battle considering that Jean is without Phoenix (the boost in power needed to match baseline Storm) and current Storm is now boosted even higher as Hadari Yao, The All-Goddess who Preserves the Balance of all Natural Things?

You hit the nail on the head. Back when Jean got the original Phoenix stuff in the 80s, she and Storm were on comparable power levels where one would be stronger than the other based on the whims of the writer for that storyline (sometimes Phoenix Force Jean Grey would be more powerful than Storm for a story and sometimes Storm would be more powerful than Phoenix Force Jean Grey in other stories). If you compare the power levels and feats between non-Phoenix Force Jean Grey against Storm's, then Storm dwarfs Jean, no comparison...and this was before Storm's recent "goddess" upgrade over in Black Panther. In all honesty, Storm should be able to stomp the Red team in the upcoming battle...even without her recent upgrade to "goddesshood". It makes me uneasy about the prospect of this fight happening because I don't see a way for Jean's team to win without devaluing Storm unless Trinary has some way to undo Nova's nannite whammy on Ororo. I have a feeling that Trinary won't be successful in accomplishing this given after Storm, the solicitations hint at Nova sending a second character after Jean's team. So, either Storm is going to be PIS'd badly so that Jean and her team can win OR Storm will manage to break free of whatever artificial control Nova has over her.

[rutog98]

The truth is we dont know where Jean's power levels currently stand. She's only appeared in 3 issues post resurrection and hasnt really been pushed to her limits. She was already incredibly powerful so she might very well have gotten a boost. We wont know until Taylor defines her and thats what this impending battle with Nova is likely to do.

Whatever her power levels are, one thing is obvious: she is much weaker than what she would have been had she accepted the Phoenix Force's offer to let it merge with her. She's nowhere near the powerclass of Nova and she is even further down the powerscale from Storm. Seriously? The X-Men have a shortage of powerful foes right now. The last thing they need to do is devalue Nova by having Jean beat her.

[Havok83]

Whatever her power levels are, one thing is obvious: she is much weaker than what she would have been had she accepted the Phoenix Force's offer to let it merge with her. She's nowhere near the powerclass of Nova and she is even further down the powerscale from Storm. Seriously? The X-Men have a shortage of powerful foes right now. The last thing they need to do is devalue Nova by having Jean beat her.

She is weaker without the PF but that by no means makes her a slouch. She wont be pulling off cosmic feats like erradicating timelines and intergalactic space travel but going up against Nova isnt something thats out of the realm of possibilities. Im glad she isnt with the PF bc this definitely defines where her power is which cant be disputed with people claiming she's only boosted by a cosmic force

I seriously doubt it will be a one-on-one where Jean squares off against Nova. It would most likely be the entire team vs. Nova by herself given Nova doesn't have a team. So, Nova will solo Red and lose due to their teamwork. This quote from Nova as well means that the last time they crossed swords in New X-Men, Jean was indeed boosted by the PF. That said, Marvel could have Wolverine beat Silver Sufer in a fight where both characters have their normal power levels, but I won't accept those results. Jean doesn't have any feats without the PF to compare with Nova.



You hit the nail on the head. Back when Jean got the original Phoenix stuff in the 80s, she and Storm were on comparable power levels where one would be stronger than the other based on the whims of the writer for that storyline (sometimes Phoenix Force Jean Grey would be more powerful than Storm for a story and sometimes Storm would be more powerful than Phoenix Force Jean Grey in other stories). If you compare the power levels and feats between non-Phoenix Force Jean Grey against Storm's, then Storm dwarfs Jean, no comparison...and this was before Storm's recent "goddess" upgrade over in Black Panther. In all honesty, Storm should be able to stomp the Red team in the upcoming battle...even without her recent upgrade to "goddesshood". It makes me uneasy about the prospect of this fight happening because I don't see a way for Jean's team to win without devaluing Storm unless Trinary has some way to undo Nova's nannite whammy on Ororo. I have a feeling that Trinary won't be successful in accomplishing this given after Storm, the solicitations hint at Nova sending a second character after Jean's team. So, either Storm is going to be PIS'd badly so that Jean and her team can win OR Storm will manage to break free of whatever artificial control Nova has over her.

Absorbing all the energy of a sun by eating it and sustaining the full force of the M'kraan crystal to contain its power dwarfs anything Storm did in that same era

[rutog98]

She is weaker without the PF but that by no means makes her a slouch. She wont be pulling off cosmic feats like erradicating timelines and intergalactic space travel but going up against Nova isnt something thats out of the realm of possibilities

I am not calling Jean a slouch, but if we are to believe that Nova is in the powerclass with Xavier, then there is no way Jean can win in a psychic duel against Cassandra. Honestly, it wouldn't even be close. If Jean manages to win this fight, then either Cassie Nova is in fact MUCH WEAKER than Xavier, or Nova was written down BADLY to prop up Jean. Psis like Xavier and Shadow King have some mad-powerful feats under their belt that Jean Grey has NEVER been able to approach without the Phoenix Force boosting her.

[rutog98]

She is weaker without the PF but that by no means makes her a slouch. She wont be pulling off cosmic feats like erradicating timelines and intergalactic space travel but going up against Nova isnt something thats out of the realm of possibilities. Im glad she isnt with the PF bc this definitely defines where her power is which cant be disputed with people claiming she's only boosted by a cosmic force


Absorbing all the energy of a sun by eating it and sustaining the full force of the M'kraan crystal to contain its power dwarfs anything Storm did in that same era

Look, in Uncanny X-Men 99, we saw Storm out in space throwing attacks backed by the full power of a star. A few issues later, we saw Phoenix Force Jean Grey defeat Firelord by throwing an attack backed by the power of a star (note, the issue did not state full power for Phoenix Force Jean Grey as it did with Ororo). Then, when the team went up against Magneto, Storm was shown to be more powerful than Phoenix Force Jean Grey in that story as Storm actually overpowered Magneto, but only lost because she held back at the end of her attack out of fear for killing him. Phoenix Force Jean Grey, on the other hand, went all out and lost to Magneto. (It should be noted that PF Jean's powers were scaled down to rival Xavier when she fought Magneto.) Later, when Phoenix Force Jean Grey became Dark Phoenix, she was the major antagonist, so of course Storm would be powered down to prop her up. While Dark Phoenix ate a star in this story, Storm would later go on to dwarf that feat. In Uncanny X-Men #165, Storm ate a galactic core (millions of stars and planets crammed into a relatively small area of space). We also have Uncanny X-Men #147 where it puts Storm's power levels in the same league as Dark Phoenix. To date, Storm has matched and exceeded every feat done by Phoenix Force Jean Grey in terms of raw power.

[Hizashi]

I am not calling Jean a slouch, but if we are to believe that Nova is in the powerclass with Xavier, then there is no way Jean can win in a psychic duel against Cassandra. Honestly, it wouldn't even be close. If Jean manages to win this fight, then either Cassie Nova is in fact MUCH WEAKER than Xavier, or Nova was written down BADLY to prop up Jean. Psis like Xavier and Shadow King have some mad-powerful feats under their belt that Jean Grey has NEVER been able to approach without the Phoenix Force boosting her.

Or a third option: Jean is now in that class with Nova and Xavier. It wouldn’t require previous feats, after all, characters get stronger over time, Storm included. They can find any number of things to explain Jean’s new power, like prolonged time in the White Hot Room, for example. I understand what you’re saying, but the narrative is still ongoing, and it wouldn’t be impossible to have Jean beat Nova without writing Nova down. Will Jean’s team play a role? Even a significant one, being crucial to allow Jean the opportunity to defeat her? Absolutely possible. It’s also possible that they thwart Nova’s plan and she leaves to plan something else. We’ll see.

[Havok83]

I am not calling Jean a slouch, but if we are to believe that Nova is in the powerclass with Xavier, then there is no way Jean can win in a psychic duel against Cassandra. Honestly, it wouldn't even be close. If Jean manages to win this fight, then either Cassie Nova is in fact MUCH WEAKER than Xavier, or Nova was written down BADLY to prop up Jean. Psis like Xavier and Shadow King have some mad-powerful feats under their belt that Jean Grey has NEVER been able to approach without the Phoenix Force boosting her.

Or Jean simply gets a power boost? Why is it not okay for her to get one?

Look, in Uncanny X-Men 99, we saw Storm out in space throwing attacks backed by the full power of a star. A few issues later, we saw Phoenix Force Jean Grey defeat Firelord by throwing an attack backed by the power of a star (note, the issue did not state full power for Phoenix Force Jean Grey as it did with Ororo). Then, when the team went up against Magneto, Storm was shown to be more powerful than Phoenix Force Jean Grey in that story as Storm actually overpowered Magneto, but only lost because she held back at the end of her attack out of fear for killing him. Phoenix Force Jean Grey, on the other hand, went all out and lost to Magneto. (It should be noted that PF Jean's powers were scaled down to rival Xavier when she fought Magneto.) Later, when Phoenix Force Jean Grey became Dark Phoenix, she was the major antagonist, so of course Storm would be powered down to prop her up. While Dark Phoenix ate a star in this story, Storm would later go on to dwarf that feat. In Uncanny X-Men #165, Storm ate a galactic core (millions of stars and planets crammed into a relatively small area of space). We also have Uncanny X-Men #147 where it puts Storm's power levels in the same league as Dark Phoenix. To date, Storm has matched and exceeded every feat done by Phoenix Force Jean Grey in terms of raw power.

Has she ever telekinetically erradicated an entire timeline?

[rutog98]

Or Jean simply gets a power boost? Why is it not okay for her to get one?



Has she ever telekinetically erradicated an entire timeline?

1) If Jean beats Nova, I would have to see some other things from Jean to buy that she got such a big boost. It would be PIS until Jean starts pulling Xavier-level feats which would not include fighting other telepaths (otherwise, I would just assert that they were devalued to prop her up).

2) Storm has done better than that. Ororo was sent into another reality where she fought the Trion who were the three "omnipotent" beings of that reality. They were the sum of all matter, life, and energy for that entire reality's past, present, and future combined. Storm engaged them in battle and proved to be strong enough to wield energy at high enough quantities to where she overpowered them. Furthermore, when that reality started coming apart at its seams, she pieced it back together.

[butterflykyss]

it is canon jean is weaker to storm prior to her having Phoenix. with storm being a goddess it's no longer even a question. just a fyi

[Havok83]

1) If Jean beats Nova, I would have to see some other things from Jean to buy that she got such a big boost. It would be PIS until Jean starts pulling Xavier-level feats which would not include fighting other telepaths (otherwise, I would just assert that they were devalued to prop her up).

2) Storm has done better than that. Ororo was sent into another reality where she fought the Trion who were the three "omnipotent" beings of that reality. They were the sum of all matter, life, and energy for that entire reality's past, present, and future combined. Storm engaged them in battle and proved to be strong enough to wield energy at high enough quantities to where she overpowered them. Furthermore, when that reality started coming apart at its seams, she pieced it back together.

scans? Where did this happen?

[rutog98]

scans? Where did this happen?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/sWDgSnLobDx...qTtMtLJf=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/zAFw2Hp2Q_e...J2JzxTX7=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/VkeSn3jQg62...kl0rH2Lc=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/W9MiEZhPChl...kAg1YsoI=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/nNMAtQfQN2g...WojSlHsO=s1600

[magenta]

While Dark Phoenix ate a star in this story, Storm would later go on to dwarf that feat. In Uncanny X-Men #165, Storm ate a galactic core (millions of stars and planets crammed into a relatively small area of space).

Storm did not eat a galactic core! Yes, I've read the issue many times and I have to question whether you have read the entire issue. That whole era of Storm was about her protecting life and never deliberately taking another life. She was agonizing over the decision to kill a single brood embryo. Even though she knew it was evil and it would do evil things, she still couldn't harm it. In the end, she chose suicide. There is no way that she would wipe out millions of stars and planets (even if she could). That goes against all of Storm's moral standards and character.