New Titans Team Spinning Out of No Justice

[SiegePerilous02]

I'll be honest: Donna can't afford another reboot. She has to keep this origin or go back to one of her older ones. I dunno why she didn't get the Titan Seed origin back, that would have been the literally easiest thing to do when it comes to her.

Honestly, all that's really all that necessary is that Donna starts to be written competently and like her older self again. Even Post Crisis Donna, origin drama aside, was fine and often well written. It was when she was introduced in the New 52 that presented the issue: they should have waited for Rebirth.

Going back to one of the old ones is what I meant, preferably just rescued from the burning building by Aphrodite (in place of Diana) and brought to Paradise Island to be raised by Hippolyta. **** started to go further and further south for her over the years ever since she lost that origin, and this is the worst she's ever been. She CAN NOT keep the current origin, it's atrocious. Why they didn't take advantage of Rucka wiping the story away to restore one of her old origins is beyond me.

[Ascended]

Well, are we sure that Donna is still under the Wonder Woman editorial department, or is she under the Titans editorial group? Rucka might've left her alone because of that.

I honestly don't know what they should do with Donna. I was never her biggest fan in the first place, and she's such a mess, *has* been such a mess for so long.....

I thought the post-Infinite Crisis "new Harbinger" thing worked for her. It explained her conflicting origins, and monitoring the multiverse gave her a purpose in the DCU beyond being an attachment to Diana or the Titans, something she could call her own. And I think going "multiverse!" is the only way to really explain and justify all the changes to her without actually losing something worthwhile.

Honestly, I always thought they should just go back to the first origin for the world's first Wonder Girl. She's actually Diana, from the past, having adventures in the present day because that's the kind of crazy crap you get to do when you're a (demi)-goddess.

[Dzetoun]

Donna’s complicated and ever-changing origin is one of DC’s great, if less attractive, traditions. But for once, I hope they just leave it alone. Yeah, what they have now isn’t the best, but they need to move forward with the Titans and quit spinning their wheels in a muck of constantly shifting continuity. Besides, they will have enough origin work to do with M’Gann and the Metagene Crisis and whatever Damian has cooking in the basement (who knows, maybe he has found a secret cloning lab working on replicating Superman, although I think it’s more likely he is putting together the latest iteration of Brother Eye).

[Grayson - The Dark Heir]

About Donna, I agree that we should just stick with what she has now. Just ignore it and tell good stories with Donna in the present. Let her actually be a character and interact with all the other Titans. Strong interactions and epic fights is all I come to team books expecting and that's something we haven't gotten from Abnett yet. Still holding out hope, but those are just my general expectations for any team book.

---
I only just realized how similar the metahuman plotline is to Young Justice Invasion and especially to Outsiders. It'll be really interesting if the book goes to the metahuman trafficking storyline that Outsiders is apparently starting with. I think that influence, just like how Snyder's JL is inspired by the JL/JLU, is probably why M'gann is on the team. So I'm hoping we're getting M'gann as an adult to match Invasion instead of retreading her teen years.

The other Titans are all on the Titans show, so Steel is the outlier. But once you look at DC's currently available stable of young adult characters, Natasha is kind of a no brainer considering she's been a around a long time and could use more exposure.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Come on man, you're really not going to make me do the compare and contrast thing here are you? No deflections. There are a number of important differences between these franchises.

The FF are tied together by their emotional bonds. Just like the Titans. That's the point. If Ben Grimm really wanted to return to normalcy, he'd leave the Baxter Building and never turn back. He didn't have any obligation to Reed or Sue or Johnny to live with them and be the Thing. However, he comes back because of his love for them. The Titans are together because of their love for one another.

Yes someone could very well come along who has new stories to tell with the NTT crowd, in the NTT style setting. Great. If they have something new to say and can say it well, I want to hear it. But while we wait for this mystery person to maybe show up eventually, years after we could've used him/her in the first place, let's do something different with the characters and brand instead of repeatedly smashing our heads against the wall with the same ideas that don't really work anymore.

Changing the way the Titans are approached doesn't mean you cant change things back if you want to. Maybe a change would end up failing. Or maybe it could be the thing the brand needs to become relevant again. In either case, it can always be changed again. It's comics. Anything can happen.

It does though, at least the way DC's been doing it. That person we want to come along and write the NTT characters can't write them if the NTT has been wiped from the canon of the DC Universe and their core members absorbed into different franchises, especially if editorial remains stubborn about keeping it that way. DC has been on a track fueled by the mentality that association with the Titans is damaging to certain characters (regardless of the fact that its not the team, but the management of said team). The longer they stay on that track, the harder it is to turn things back or grant any writers permission to revisit those characters or concepts.

[OBrianTallent]

As far as Donna goes, this is what I am having trouble wrapping my head around. Donna's current origin is kind of dependent on the Azzarello storyline...angry amazons creating a golem to take out Diana. DC just spent a year (or more if you count Robinson's run) undoing that whole five years worth of stories pretty much. Diana has never been back to Themyscira since she left, no Amazons have come out into the world since then either as far as we know. So HOW can Donna still fall under that (crap) origin. Those Amazons never existed. Let's be generous and say Diana left ten years ago...when how did Donna get here? It's like the Titans book and Wonder Woman (or maybe just Wonder Woman's book) are operating in two different universes. This is what they need to clear up with Donna asap. Not keeping up with that mess of a New52 origin they are trying to pass off.
That and get rid of the shoulder pads and sword.

[SiegePerilous02]

Well, are we sure that Donna is still under the Wonder Woman editorial department, or is she under the Titans editorial group? Rucka might've left her alone because of that.

True, and it's a shame if that's the case. Even so, why didn't Titans editorial department take advantage of that and restore her older origin? Why did anybody in charge think sticking with her new origin was something anybody wanted?

I thought the post-Infinite Crisis "new Harbinger" thing worked for her. It explained her conflicting origins, and monitoring the multiverse gave her a purpose in the DCU beyond being an attachment to Diana or the Titans, something she could call her own. And I think going "multiverse!" is the only way to really explain and justify all the changes to her without actually losing something worthwhile.

Speaking of Harbinder, since the creative team that created her, the Monitor/Anti-Monitor (still the dumbest names in existence), Pariah, etc. were the ones who worked on NTT, why not start using the Titans franchise to explore the Multiverse lore? Use Morrison's concepts from Multiversity and Final Crisis and expand on them. Nobody is doing anything with the Earth that Lady Quark and the Forerunners are from, which was an alternate Earth Wolfman and Perez created just to kill off. Morrison established that it is a race of super beings engineered to combat Darkseid. That's a setting that can produce a limitless amount of brand new heroes and villains. Build some story arcs mixing the Titans lore with the Forerunners, and by extension the Fourth World, and we have something with a lot more potential than eating pizza in Dick's apartment and fighting the Fearsome Five again.

Honestly, I always thought they should just go back to the first origin for the world's first Wonder Girl. She's actually Diana, from the past, having adventures in the present day because that's the kind of crazy crap you get to do when you're a (demi)-goddess.

That would effectively mean that Donna as a character gets wiped out of existence, and that seems counterproductive.
Though it may also be a final mercy killing depending on how you look at it....

As far as Donna goes, this is what I am having trouble wrapping my head around. Donna's current origin is kind of dependent on the Azzarello storyline...angry amazons creating a golem to take out Diana. DC just spent a year (or more if you count Robinson's run) undoing that whole five years worth of stories pretty much. Diana has never been back to Themyscira since she left, no Amazons have come out into the world since then either as far as we know. So HOW can Donna still fall under that (crap) origin. Those Amazons never existed. Let's be generous and say Diana left ten years ago...when how did Donna get here? It's like the Titans book and Wonder Woman (or maybe just Wonder Woman's book) are operating in two different universes. This is what they need to clear up with Donna asap. Not keeping up with that mess of a New52 origin they are trying to pass off.
That and get rid of the shoulder pads and sword.

There is NO reason why a Titans writer couldn't have come up with some other explanation for how infant Donna ended up on the island for Hippolyta to adopt, and written some "missing scenes" to account for where she was during Year One.

It was so simple, and the fact that they didn't take advantage of it is staggering.

[Ascended]

It does though, at least the way DC's been doing it. That person we want to come along and write the NTT characters can't write them if the NTT has been wiped from the canon of the DC Universe and their core members absorbed into different franchises, especially if editorial remains stubborn about keeping it that way. DC has been on a track fueled by the mentality that association with the Titans is damaging to certain characters (regardless of the fact that its not the team, but the management of said team). The longer they stay on that track, the harder it is to turn things back or grant any writers permission to revisit those characters or concepts.

Reboots certainly complicate matters, but those don't roll around very often (well.....not usually anyway.....). But even still, its only a problem until it isn't.

How many times in the history of this industry have we seen a title change, only to return to a older version later on? All of us here can think of several examples easily, I'm sure. Even Bucky and Barry Allen are alive again. What was old is always new again. And it always changes again.

Hell, it could be said that this is the natural life cycle of the industry. Expansions and contractions of continuity (whether "erased" or "ignored" the end result is the same), changes and shifts in direction, and the occasional short-term stunt (Gordon's Batman!) to make us all appreciate the regular status quo. Why you wanna suffocate the Titans man?

Anyway, we're not convincing each other, and we've already had this discussion before. I think this is just a topic where we're not gonna see eye to eye. Agreed to disagree?

[Elegant Dreamer]

Well, DC has shown no qualms of erasing even recent stuff from the timeline. Look at Superman and Wonder Woman for confirmation of that. But they don't necessarily HAVE to erase it. They can just retcon it and say that, oh yeah, Beast Boy and Raven were really older than Tim and his lot the whole time. I mean, it wasn't the first time they were on a team together anyway.

Just blame Doctor Manhattan.

It looks okay, but with Abnett on board and the roster just looking like a weird mish-mash of Titans teams that doesn't seem sure of what it wants to be, and my 50/50 feelings about Peterson on art, I'm just not sure how to feel about this .

I love how Dick loos so unsure on that cover. It's like even he doesn't know why he's still on Abnett's Titans team .

So is Miss Martian wearing some kind of dress costume? I'm kind of glad they didn't just go with the Young Justice bodysuit.

Raven and Beast Boy look like Raven and Beast Boy, Rave looking moreso like her old self then she did even in Rebirth. I wouldn't assume they're older yet given how Peterson tends to draw teenagers.

I'll be honest, with the art I thought for a second Natasha was John Henry.

I think the last thing Donna's new look needed was random shoulder pads.

The new guy reminds me of Jericho.

Yeah, the guy with the white hair reminds me of someone as well. Can't place my finger on it . . .

I'll be honest: Donna can't afford another reboot. She has to keep this origin or go back to one of her older ones. I dunno why she didn't get the Titan Seed origin back, that would have been the literally easiest thing to do when it comes to her.

Honestly, all that's really all that necessary is that Donna starts to be written competently and like her older self again. Even Post Crisis Donna, origin drama aside, was fine and often well written. It was when she was introduced in the New 52 that presented the issue: they should have waited for Rebirth.

I think they should make a rule that starting whatever date, they should stick with one origin story and it can never be changed so something like this will never happen again.

[Ascended]

True, and it's a shame if that's the case. Even so, why didn't Titans editorial department take advantage of that and restore her older origin? Why did anybody in charge think sticking with her new origin was something anybody wanted?

I have no idea. Many of DC's choices make no sense to me.

Speaking of Harbinder, since the creative team that created her, the Monitor/Anti-Monitor (still the dumbest names in existence), Pariah, etc. were the ones who worked on NTT, why not start using the Titans franchise to explore the Multiverse lore? Use Morrison's concepts from Multiversity and Final Crisis and expand on them. Nobody is doing anything with the Earth that Lady Quark and the Forerunners are from, which was an alternate Earth Wolfman and Perez created just to kill off. Morrison established that it is a race of super beings engineered to combat Darkseid. That's a setting that can produce a limitless amount of brand new heroes and villains. Build some story arcs mixing the Titans lore with the Forerunners, and by extension the Fourth World, and we have something with a lot more potential than eating pizza in Dick's apartment and fighting the Fearsome Five again.

The Titans interacting with the Forever People and Oberon? Hells yeah.

You could even swing that around and use Raven's ties to Trigon to explore how the Fourth World interacts with other divine planes too.

That would effectively mean that Donna as a character gets wiped out of existence, and that seems counterproductive.
Though it may also be a final mercy killing depending on how you look at it....

Yup. Sure would.

[OBrianTallent]

True, and it's a shame if that's the case. Even so, why didn't Titans editorial department take advantage of that and restore her older origin? Why did anybody in charge think sticking with her new origin was something anybody wanted?



Speaking of Harbinder, since the creative team that created her, the Monitor/Anti-Monitor (still the dumbest names in existence), Pariah, etc. were the ones who worked on NTT, why not start using the Titans franchise to explore the Multiverse lore? Use Morrison's concepts from Multiversity and Final Crisis and expand on them. Nobody is doing anything with the Earth that Lady Quark and the Forerunners are from, which was an alternate Earth Wolfman and Perez created just to kill off. Morrison established that it is a race of super beings engineered to combat Darkseid. That's a setting that can produce a limitless amount of brand new heroes and villains. Build some story arcs mixing the Titans lore with the Forerunners, and by extension the Fourth World, and we have something with a lot more potential than eating pizza in Dick's apartment and fighting the Fearsome Five again.



That would effectively mean that Donna as a character gets wiped out of existence, and that seems counterproductive.
Though it may also be a final mercy killing depending on how you look at it....



There is NO reason why a Titans writer couldn't have come up with some other explanation for how infant Donna ended up on the island for Hippolyta to adopt, and written some "missing scenes" to account for where she was during Year One.

It was so simple, and the fact that they didn't take advantage of it is staggering.

This exactly and yet we are stuck with one of the worst origins in (what I am going to throw into hyper fan tantrum mode and call...) THE WORST ORIGIN EVER IN THE HISTORY OF EVERYTHING!!!!! Ok, out of my 8 year old self and back to adulthood now. It really is a horrible one and they just can't seem to do anything to make it better for what ever dumb reason they have.

[Digifiend]

Well, are we sure that Donna is still under the Wonder Woman editorial department, or is she under the Titans editorial group? Rucka might've left her alone because of that.

Wonder Woman doesn't even HAVE an editorial department does it? Isn't it in the Superman office?

[Godlike13]

I feel for Donna, and someone does need to right that ship, but this is another problem with the Titans. The Titans shouldn’t just be a rehab for character. Not in its current position. The team itself need to be developed and established, and it’s harder to do that’s when it has to fix and reestablish most of its roster at the same time.

[OBrianTallent]

Wonder Woman doesn't even HAVE an editorial department does it? Isn't it in the Superman office?

She was moved to the Batman office with Rebirth. Not sure where or who she is with now.

[kurenai24]

Does anybody have faith in this book or have hope that the new direction after the No Justice event will be beneficial...