New Titans Team Spinning Out of No Justice

[Pohzee]

Does anybody have faith in this book or have hope that the new direction after the No Justice event will be beneficial...

Faith is too strong a word, but, despite everything in my brain screaming otherwise, I have hope that it might be good.

I should be sick of BB and Raven with the Titans. I should be done giving Abnett chances. But for some reason, I am intrigued. Maybe it's Steel. I think that's a pretty cool idea.

[reni344]

I can still have some faith because it has happened before I was not fond of Red Hood and Outlaws in the New 52 written by Scott Lobdell but I love Red Hood and the Outlaws in Rebirth by Scott Lobdell maybe an editorial change helped I don't know but I went from hating a book by this writer and loving a book by this writer. Maybe the same thing could happen with Abnett.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Reboots certainly complicate matters, but those don't roll around very often (well.....not usually anyway.....). But even still, its only a problem until it isn't.

How many times in the history of this industry have we seen a title change, only to return to a older version later on? All of us here can think of several examples easily, I'm sure. Even Bucky and Barry Allen are alive again. What was old is always new again. And it always changes again.

Hell, it could be said that this is the natural life cycle of the industry. Expansions and contractions of continuity (whether "erased" or "ignored" the end result is the same), changes and shifts in direction, and the occasional short-term stunt (Gordon's Batman!) to make us all appreciate the regular status quo. Why you wanna suffocate the Titans man?

Anyway, we're not convincing each other, and we've already had this discussion before. I think this is just a topic where we're not gonna see eye to eye. Agreed to disagree?

You realize I agree with some of what you're saying, right? No, I don't want to suffocate the Titans. I don't have an issue with former Titans members going off for a stint and filling other roles in the DCU temporarily. I welcome experimentation with characters. However, DC doesn't just want to experiment with the NTT. They want to bury the NTT and forget that they ever existed. That's the sticking point for me. That's what I can't stand.

The thing about Bucky and Barry was that Marvel and DC never said that those characters, even though they'd been killed off, were erased from the timeline. So, the very idea of Cyborg on the League isn't what bothers me, no, nor the idea that they'd be on other teams. Winnick's run on the Outsiders, for example, where he put Dick and Roy on that team is among my favorites. What bothers me, however, is that DC has insisted that the NTT never existed in continuity and has just said to fans "forget them."

[Moonwix]

I feel for Donna, and someone does need to right that ship, but this is another problem with the Titans. The Titans shouldn’t just be a rehab for character. Not in its current position. The team itself need to be developed and established, and it’s harder to do that’s when it has to fix and reestablish most of its roster at the same time.

You are absolutely right, this was the fundamental problem I had with this series. The writer spending the last 2 years trying to fix or re-establish characters who were in limbo or ruined in the n52 like Donna.(And yet, she is not fixed and still a mess).

While doing this, Dick was pushed into the background and now, it feels like a round 2 of the same thing with these new additions to the team. Even if nightwing is the leader, I fear he will be push again further into the background. That aside, I really would like if they actually develop the team instead and not try to fix most of this characters in this book.

[Restingvoice]

Does anybody have faith in this book or have hope that the new direction after the No Justice event will be beneficial...

I'm interested because it spun out of a main DC plot line. How it goes from there though, depends on what's in the book. Since the book hasn't come out yet, current expectation is zero.

[SiegePerilous02]

I feel for Donna, and someone does need to right that ship, but this is another problem with the Titans. The Titans shouldn’t just be a rehab for character. Not in its current position. The team itself need to be developed and established, and it’s harder to do that’s when it has to fix and reestablish most of its roster at the same time.

They really just need to do a mini series or one shot separate from the WW or Titans title and sort her crap out once and for all. Then have her start featuring in both again. Don't hijack either book (especially WW) with her until that's done.

[Ascended]

You realize I agree with some of what you're saying, right? No, I don't want to suffocate the Titans. I don't have an issue with former Titans members going off for a stint and filling other roles in the DCU temporarily. I welcome experimentation with characters. However, DC doesn't just want to experiment with the NTT. They want to bury the NTT and forget that they ever existed. That's the sticking point for me. That's what I can't stand.

No, I know. I think we actually agree on more here than we disagree on. But the things we disagree on I don't think we'll change each other's minds about. That's what I meant.

And I'm not sure what DC wants to do with the Titans. First, they worked really hard to make us forget about the NTT, to the point they re-wrote certain New52 books in trade format to omit mentions of the group. Now we're back to reunions. I think DC honestly doesn't know *what* to do with them. Reunions haven't worked, poorly executed reboots haven't worked.....and really, those are the only two moves DC has; reboot or shock value gimmick. I think management and creators both are exhausted by the team because nothing they try ever works, and certainly doesn't come close to the success we all know the Titans are capable of reaching. And in the background you have the fans screaming for a return to glory the publisher has no idea how to bring back.

The thing about Bucky and Barry was that Marvel and DC never said that those characters, even though they'd been killed off, were erased from the timeline. What bothers me, however, is that DC has insisted that the NTT never existed in continuity and has just said to fans "forget them."

Reboots are always a mistake. I think with the New52 DC was really trying to break the Titans out of the reunion cycle they had been trapped in, and I think I see what they were trying to do with it, but as usual they went so far overboard on the idea it blew up in their faces, and the new positions and books the former Titans ended up on weren't usually high enough quality to feel like a proper new direction, or if the team felt like a good replacement, the Titan in question was painfully under-used and under-developed.

[Grayson]

I’m surprised that people don’t like Abnett’s run on Titans, I didn’t know it was so unliked. Anyways as much as I do like his run thus far, I don’t know about this current team. Miss Martian is a great addition but I’m not interested in any of the new members. Especially Steel, I rather see John as Steel and doing something big. I’ll give this a shot though.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

No, I know. I think we actually agree on more here than we disagree on. But the things we disagree on I don't think we'll change each other's minds about. That's what I meant.

And I'm not sure what DC wants to do with the Titans. First, they worked really hard to make us forget about the NTT, to the point they re-wrote certain New52 books in trade format to omit mentions of the group. Now we're back to reunions. I think DC honestly doesn't know *what* to do with them. Reunions haven't worked, poorly executed reboots haven't worked.....and really, those are the only two moves DC has; reboot or shock value gimmick. I think management and creators both are exhausted by the team because nothing they try ever works, and certainly doesn't come close to the success we all know the Titans are capable of reaching. And in the background you have the fans screaming for a return to glory the publisher has no idea how to bring back.

I think what DC needs to do with the Titans is basically what Marvel did with the X-Men. Embrace new characters and directions, but keep the old, keep the classic, historic elements that have made the franchise popular. That's what Grayson's run on the Titans did and it was one of the better takes on the team. DC should create new characters for the Titans to invigorate the franchise, but maintain the classic elements and characters that are pivotal to its success.

[ConnorHawke]

I think the worst thing they did to the Titans is the reason why the franchise is in the state that it's in.

Donna? Dead husband and baby.
Wally? Disappeared kids and wife can't remember him.
Garth? Dead baby, no longer has a wife.
Roy? Dead baby.

These were the characters that, despite having some horrible, convoluted histories, had managed to have a future. Killing off their kids and constantly de-aging them deletes all of that potential and keeps the characters and concepts in a state of stagnation.

They should have become the trainers, the caretakers of the next generations, while those above them "fought the good fight" and aged with them.

Honestly, Zero Hour them, bring back their casts and connections, and stop clearing house by killing off anything remotely connected to the group. Cyborg's series would have more to draw from with a restored history, as would Nightwing's.

[Digifiend]

She was moved to the Batman office with Rebirth. Not sure where or who she is with now.

Still Batman - this explains Brave and the Bold's existence.

That would effectively mean that Donna as a character gets wiped out of existence, and that seems counterproductive.
Though it may also be a final mercy killing depending on how you look at it....

Yeah, they should use the origin that replaced it - Donna is a normal human who gets rescued from a fire and raised as Diana's younger sister. That origin originally had her get her powers from a Purple Ray though, I'd change this science based power up to a magical one.

[Waterfall]

I think what DC needs to do with the Titans is basically what Marvel did with the X-Men. Embrace new characters and directions, but keep the old, keep the classic, historic elements that have made the franchise popular. That's what Grayson's run on the Titans did and it was one of the better takes on the team. DC should create new characters for the Titans to invigorate the franchise, but maintain the classic elements and characters that are pivotal to its success.

So...make it impossible for new readers to come in and slowly turn away the fans you have with mindnumbing retcons to explain keeping Status Quo?

Let's not do that.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

So...make it impossible for new readers to come in and slowly turn away the fans you have with mindnumbing retcons to explain keeping Status Quo?

Let's not do that.

The X-Men and the Avengers don’t seem to have any problems with maintaining their continuity and history and actually attract readers while doing so. If anything, it’s constant tinkering and messing with teams’ histories that put DC at a disadvantage. And speaking of turning away fans with mind numbing retcons, how many fans have been saying that altering the history of the League and the Titans was something that turned them off? A lot.

[The Dying Detective]

The X-Men and the Avengers don’t seem to have any problems with maintaining their continuity and history and actually attract readers while doing so. If anything, it’s constant tinkering and messing with teams’ histories that put DC at a disadvantage. And speaking of turning away fans with mind numbing retcons, how many fans have been saying that altering the history of the League and the Titans was something that turned them off? A lot.

X-Men and Avengers have done their fair share of weird things to their continuity too. Like the infamous return of the founding X-Men's younger selves which should have brought issues to the timeline and thanks to their exposure to the current era no one really knows how they will affect time in the present if they were to return to the past. Of course they could have wiped their memories clean and fix the problem but that's doesn't seem to be an option for some reason. Instead for a couple of extra bucks we're getting this big crossover even that may or may not alter things. And let's not forget what happened to Captain America becoming a Nazi and instead of reverting things back to the way they were we now have a alternate version of Steve Rogers who was good running around instead. And I believe some sort of weirdness was done to Iron Man but I forget what exactly it was and hwo they even rectified it.

[Ascended]

I think what DC needs to do with the Titans is basically what Marvel did with the X-Men. Embrace new characters and directions, but keep the old, keep the classic, historic elements that have made the franchise popular. That's what Grayson's run on the Titans did and it was one of the better takes on the team. DC should create new characters for the Titans to invigorate the franchise, but maintain the classic elements and characters that are pivotal to its success.

I think Devin Grayson was pointed in a right direction, but I don't think she went far enough.

The "mentor to young heroes" thing is a viable purpose and direction for the Titans. But she didn't bring in enough new members and there was very little focus on actually training those new heroes (several of whom weren't even new or inexperienced, like Jesse Quick!) it was largely just "Hey, remember this villain from decades ago? Who wants to watch them fight the Titans for the millionth time!!??"

But I do think she was pointed the right way, so I'd be down for your idea here. If her stories had actually reflected the new purpose and status quo, we likely wouldn't be discussing the sad state of this franchise today.