How do you see the Titans?

[mathew101281]

The Titans should be gen xers of the superhero world. They aren’t the kids they are the young adults. They are the first generation of children to leave the nest. It’s really Tim Drake’s generation of heroes that are really getting screwed with DC’s idea to add yet another generation of heroes to the DCU. It would be one thing if the older leaguers were going to be aged out eventually,but we all know that’s not going to happen. Dick Grayson’s generation is safe though because they were the first generation of Young heroes so their role and presence will always be there. It’s all the middle and younger generations that are in trouble.

[Assam]

The adult Titans have nothing to make them stand out, the stories are boring, and no writer has been able to add something new and exciting to the mythos of any significance since Perez left. .

That first part is 100% just your opinion. I will NEVER get why people have a problem with a team, ANY team, being 'another superhero team' so long as the characters are unique and interesting and the stories good. Now the latter is a hurdle the Titans haven't been able to really overcome for the last 15 years, but that's not the team's fault.

As to your latter point, I've seen you use those exact words three or four times now and they do bug me a bit because it implies that nothing good has happened since Perez left and that that's the team's fault. The three main figures I'd place blame on for the team's state are DiDio, Helfer and the fans. (Betcha thought I was gonna say Johns.)

The first run after Wolfman, Jurgens', was all about being new and different, while still paying respect to what came before, and it was fantastic. A damn shame the fans rejected it because it wasn't what they were used to.

Then we had the Titans/Young Justice era. Again, amazing books for years that were new and different. Both books ended up making it to at least 50 issues, but between Helfer's really dumb editorial decisions ( The DEO kids and, yes, wanting the Titans to figure out their mission statement) tanking the book and attrition catching up with YJ, it gave DiDio the oppurtunity to cancel them and launch Johns' book.

And how did fans respond to Johns' book? They. Ate. It. Up. This can partially be attributed to it being the start of comics for many, but even still, people voted with their wallets and said "Yeah, we just want more of the same."

Of course while that all lead to the problem, the reason it hasn't been solved yet is because there hasn't been a good run since 2003.

[MajorHoy]

Maybe the "Titans" needs a better name so the aren't just viewed as the college-age equivalent of the "Teen Titans"?

("Teen Titans: The Next Generation")

[Trey Strain]

This argument will always baffle me, it's for entertainment and a vessel for storytelling. In-universe you could argue for most super teams being "redundant".

I agree. And making something a B title or giving a team a limited mission always fails, so they should stop doing that.

There should be as many teams as people will buy, just as there should be as many solo titles as people will buy. The key is making the characters in the comics different.

[Restingvoice]

Definitely junior from what I've seen. This is how I see them, not how I want them to be seen, right?

[Godlike13]

Their own thing, trying to be equal footing with League. To me they should be that young hot shot team that are out there to make a name for themselves. They don't have to be better then the JL, just cooler

[SiegePerilous02]

That first part is 100% just your opinion.

I feel like that's a given, isn't it? Everything everyone posts here is 100% their opinion. You don't exactly lead with "in my opinion" with all of your posts either.

I will NEVER get why people have a problem with a team, ANY team, being 'another superhero team' so long as the characters are unique and interesting and the stories good. Now the latter is a hurdle the Titans haven't been able to really overcome for the last 15 years, but that's not the team's fault.

The problem is, the Titans as they are now are not unique and interesting, so the lack of a specific mission statement is even worse than it could be otherwise. Their most popular and marketable non-sidekicks members are either elsewhere (Cyborg, Starfire, arguably Terra over in Deathstroke) or were de-aged so they could be part of the junior team (Beast Boy, Raven). The Fab 5 are not being written well so that their unique qualities can be highlighted, so at a glance they are just junior versions of Nightwing, Wonder Woman, the Flash, Green Arrow and Aquaman. The is especially obvious whenever they do a cover with both teams on it. The writing for Dick's character sucks and Donna has been screwed around with so much and having important aspects of her character and history cut away (her relationship with her adoptive mother, sister and the Amazons repeatedly altered or stripped away, her mortal family is nowhere in sight, her history with Terry and her son and step daughter is gone, the Titans of Myth are gone), that there is nothing left.

As to your latter point, I've seen you use those exact words three or four times now and they do bug me a bit because it implies that nothing good has happened since Perez left and that that's the team's fault. The three main figures I'd place blame on for the team's state are DiDio, Helfer and the fans. (Betcha thought I was gonna say Johns.)

Of course it's the creative direction and not the characters. At the end of the day though, the specifics aren't as important as the fact that nothing after a certain point in the stories has managed to stick or be used in other media as frequently as the stuff that came before.

The first run after Wolfman, Jurgens', was all about being new and different, while still paying respect to what came before, and it was fantastic. A damn shame the fans rejected it because it wasn't what they were used to.

Does everyone regard it as fantastic, or is that 100% your opinion? It could have been swept under the rug because fans are legitimately stubborn and refuse new things, or maybe it just wasn't anything special?

Then we had the Titans/Young Justice era. Again, amazing books for years that were new and different. Both books ended up making it to at least 50 issues, but between Helfer's really dumb editorial decisions ( The DEO kids and, yes, wanting the Titans to figure out their mission statement) tanking the book and attrition catching up with YJ, it gave DiDio the oppurtunity to cancel them and launch Johns' book.

YJ was really its own thing. it was connected to the Titans franchise because it starred the legacies of the sidekicks, but they had their own name and the Titans still got to be a team of older young adults. It's also provided elements that contributed to other media adaptations like the YJ show, where not much in the Titans franchise proper has made it to other media. The cartoons and the live action show and DTVs either de-age Dick's group to be teens again and/or adapt the Judas Contract and Trigon stuff because it's being presented to an audience that hasn't seen it rehashed over and over yet.

There is not a doubt in my mind that Devin Grayson probably wrote all the characters far better than Abnett, I read Technis Imperitive and it was pretty good. But it was also overly saccharine in some parts, and I don't know much of that I can stomach in an ongoing run. A casual glance at the issues she wrote makes it look like standard fare from that era: no doubt good and solid, but not treading new creative ground. If Goth didn't stick around, I imagine it's because he wasn't that memorable. The cartoons and DTVs don't seem overly eager to use him.

And how did fans respond to Johns' book? They. Ate. It. Up. This can partially be attributed to it being the start of comics for many, but even still, people voted with their wallets and said "Yeah, we just want more of the same."

And look where it's got us. Further stigma that the word "Teen" needs to be in front of the word "Titans" in order for the premise to work. The precedent established by that is how we got the Abnett farm team.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I agree with this. I enjoy the Titans team, but they are not needed if the Justice League is around. I think they are capable, but they don't have a purpose that distinguishes them.

Several story arcs have kind of proven this wrong, including the very first arc of the New Teen Titans run. The JLA was around then, but they were too close-minded to believe the threat that Raven said was coming for Earth. The people who did believe her and then stopped Trigon? The Titans.

Redundant.

What's the point when you have the JL, GL Corps, Suicide Squad, and the TT?

Well, what's the point of the X-Men, Alpha Flight, the Defenders, X-Force, the Fantastic Four, the Guardians of the Galaxy, etc. as long as the Avengers are around? All of those teams could be disbanded and then join under the umbrella of the Avengers, as different branches of the same team. However, that would ignore what makes each team unique. And most importantly, it would be booooooooring to have all the heroes just as one team. Entertainment, which is what comics strive for, demands diversity of concepts and characters to keep people's attention.

I get that it is for entertainment and story telling but we have seen from the Titans, the same stuff over and over. Dick Grayson being like Batman and no one trusting him, Trigon and so on. It just gets dull and more of the fun stuff happen elsewhere.

There's no purpose with them as a team

You mean, besides having their own unique threats and villains and way of operating? Reed Richards could just let the Avengers handle Dr. Doom, and call them in whenever he tries to attack the Baxter Building. But Reed and the FF are the only ones who really know Doom and understand him to the point where they can predict his plans and take him down.

Nobody else in the DCU knows or understands the likes of Deathstroke or Trigon or Brother Blood the way that the Titans do...

[reni344]

Several story arcs have kind of proven this wrong, including the very first arc of the New Teen Titans run. The JLA was around then, but they were too close-minded to believe the threat that Raven said was coming for Earth. The people who did believe her and then stopped Trigon? The Titans.



Well, what's the point of the X-Men, Alpha Flight, the Defenders, X-Force, the Fantastic Four, the Guardians of the Galaxy, etc. as long as the Avengers are around? All of those teams could be disbanded and then join under the umbrella of the Avengers, as different branches of the same team. However, that would ignore what makes each team unique. And most importantly, it would be booooooooring to have all the heroes just as one team. Entertainment, which is what comics strive for, demands diversity of concepts and characters to keep people's attention.



You mean, besides having their own unique threats and villains and way of operating? Reed Richards could just let the Avengers handle Dr. Doom, and call them in whenever he tries to attack the Baxter Building. But Reed and the FF are the only ones who really know Doom and understand him to the point where they can predict his plans and take him down.

Nobody else in the DCU knows or understands the likes of Deathstroke or Trigon or Brother Blood the way that the Titans do...

I was talking about the current Titans team what do they bring to the table, nothing really except bad characterizations. And being the lapdog of the Justice Leauge. And in the larger DCU they have been largely irrelevent.

[Deniz Camp]

Neither I guess, but leaning towards the first.

Titans is arguably the only actual team besides JL in the DCU with any kind of franchise potential/cache. For that reason alone I think it should be developed separately from JL -- because it's one of the very few things that can be.

If you want a "junior justice league" I think your best bet is to just create Young Justice and people it appropriately. But the Teen Titans can be something else -- and maybe one needs to look at the concept and find something else to do with it, something that doesn't rely on the connection to the Justice League as much, some direction, some mission statement that is more than 'next generation'. Which means tossing some of what made NEW TEEN TITANS work, philosophically, which is probably a bridge too far for people.

But maybe TITANS is DC's X Men -- shepherding the metahumans and aliens of earth not necessarily into superhero-dom but just becoming functional and happy members of society.

[Robotman]

no team in the DCU is on the same level as the Justice League. not even the JSA. it doesn't mean the Titans are superfluous. it's just that up until the first Avengers movie, the Justice League was arguably the most iconic/historic superhero team in comics. but the Titans have always seemed special because unlike any other DC team, they really feel like a family. i think many of us have those friends you have known all or most of your life that you consider family. that's the Titans. all the other teams seem like co-workers. i can't imagine any other team making a group hug an appropriate way to celebrate. but for some reason i wouldn't bat an eye if Dick, Donna, Roy, Wally, Garth, etc. hugged it out.

[Trey Strain]

If you write a title like Titans, your attitude should be, "My goal is to outsell the Justice League and make it look bad by comparison with Titans every month."

If you take the attitude, "My poor little comic will play second fiddle," then you'll struggle to do even that.

[Dr. Poison]

I see the adult Titans(Dick, Donna, Wally, Garth, & Roy) as their own team. Sure, they used to be teen sidekicks but they've all grown into their own, very capable heroes. They've taken on and defeated quite a few serious threats like Trigon, the Fearsome Five, Deathstroke, Antithesis, Dark Angel, the Brotherhood of Evil, and Justice League villains such as the Key and Dr. Light.

[Restingvoice]

This argument will always baffle me, it's for entertainment and a vessel for storytelling. In-universe you could argue for most super teams being "redundant".

Yeah, I don't get this logic either. I've already seen one TV show, why would I ever watch another? We already have one choice of food for dinner, why would we ever want another choice, can't we just eat the same thing for every meal, forever? We already have a football team, why would other cities / regions want their own teams, and what's with having different sports, if we already have football, do we need basketball, or baseball, or hockey, or soccer? We've already got a kind of car, why do we need a dozen different redundant makes and models?

Yeesh.

They can be redundant if someone is following as many book as they can, had to make decision based on a budget and drop the ones they don't need.

As for me specifically, I follow the main throughline plot and that means Dr. Manhattan, Mr. Oz, and 3 Jokers. Titans was picked because I thought Wally is the main character of DC Rebirth and connected to Dr. Manhattan, but when it looks like he's not, I dropped it, but I already find the characters interesting, so I want them to be relevant to the main plot.

That's Another reason. They may already like the characters but find Titans story uninteresting, so they'd prefer them to be in a different team or have a solo series. Nightwing fans are still luckier compared to the others, assuming they like his solo series.

I agree. And making something a B title or giving a team a limited mission always fails, so they should stop doing that.

There should be as many teams as people will buy, just as there should be as many solo titles as people will buy. The key is making the characters in the comics different.

The one giving any team a B status is DC though, based on how the characters are treated in universe and how much DC decide to promote them. Young Justice tv was cancelled and only revived by fans protest and there's never a Titans series. Only Teen Titans.

I also like to add that the New Teen Titans isn't a Titans book, it's a Teen Titans book. Even if they star the same characters. Those classic stories are repeated in Teen Titans tv show. Raven, Beast Boy, and Starfire are held back to Teen Titans because they're associated with Teen Titans, not Titans. Donna was also deaged in the JL vs TT movie. The only reason Dick wasn't dragged as well was because there's multiple Robins so Damian fill the spot.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I was talking about the current Titans team what do they bring to the table, nothing really except bad characterizations. And being the lapdog of the Justice Leauge. And in the larger DCU they have been largely irrelevent.

Yeah, the way that the Titans are being handled in recent years sucks. Just as long as people know that that is not what the Titans have historically been.