Danny Rand vs The Beast (Kung Fu Hustle)

[Pendaran]

This actually brings up a weird point. In the panel before the bullet-catch, Danny specifically says that Hydra agents are outside, watching and "listening." How does he know that last part? We know he can detect lifeforce ("are outside"), but listening? Because he's right. Going purely by what is on the panel, we must conclude that Danny in fact knows they are listening.

He sensed them on the previous page, the page of the catch is him elaborating in response to Ernst being shocked that the minions of Xao are here now. Your argument is now based on trying to build a mountain ontop of the word "listening".

I'm sure as you leap from rationale to rationale without stopping for a minute to take in how much of a contradictory mess they make your attempts at any given rationale you'll want to say "so much lead time then!" but that takes us back to the Beast's lead time, and setting up his own shot, somehow not mattering by comparison for some mysterious reason.

Also wouldn't really change that his "lead time" for the actual shot boils down to telling Ernst to dive and him doing so. Unless again you just create a comic for yourself where Danny totally turned to look anyway, or hey, maybe he didn't, maybe he picked out the bullet with the supersenses whose acuity you straight up refuse to even try and justify with actual performances that could be looked at for validity.

So either Danny sees this device (he can already see the assasins of the corner of his eye)

So basically you're contradicting your own argument as you make it to hold onto that he existingly saw the assassins, which of course at a different point in the thread you said he wouldn't need to do anyway, because his supersenses would let him pick out the bullet from the moment it left the gun.

You can be quoted on all these things if you like.

Do you feel it strengthens your argument that it is constantly contradicting itself for exactly what it is you are arguing?

So either Danny sees this device (he can already see the assasins of the corner of his eye) or he heard it (he can hear that acutely at 50 feet through a glass door).

Either way works for me.

Neither way actually justifies your claim that he grabbed for the bullet the moment he left the gun/was directly looking at the shooters he was shown facing away from because his eye was drawn upwards/sensed the bullet anyway.

That's not only an understatement, it's the crux of the entire argument, as I reiterate below.

The crux of your entire argument is making up when Danny grabbed for the bullet and repeatedly contradicting yourself in order to grasp for some argument that will keep letting you do so as the flaws in all your statements keep getting pointed out.

Leaving out the multipliers here and just calling both "much larger" presents the illusion that these two differences more or less equal out. They don't. The multiplier on bullet speed is only 4. The multiplier on travel distance is 50. The difference is a whole order of magnitude.

And is only relevant if you make up that Danny grabbed for the bullet the moment it left the gun, despite nothing showing that, along with an increasingly self contradictory pile of arguments to try and keep claiming you can.

Again, just to drill this home, the speeds are not even close. Even if we're generous to Danny and say the bullet wasn't noticed until it was only 25 ft away, we're still talking about a 25:1 ratio on bullet distance vs only a 4:1 on bullet speed.

So even if Danny's hand had to move 2x as far as Beast's, Beast's would still be moving (on average) around 3x as fast.

As long as you write your own comic and ignore what it actually shows, you bet.

Just to change pace here, what are Danny's ranged/aoe options that are strong enough to actually hurt Beast?

He crashed a helicarrier with massive energy flares we saw all along its deck. This required him punching the ground/the deck of it.

This particular feat just is what it is.

"as long as you accept when I make up how Danny was grabbing for the bullet from nothing, instead of the comic showing him grabbing for it as it comes in past him."

[The Dork Knight]

Can you restate that? I'm unclear what you're asking. About 100mph is the max hand speed of the pitcher, but it is only achieved for a moment at the peak of its acceleration. Danny would have had to average it throughout the entire movement. His peak hand speed would have been much higher and his bottom, of course, would have been zero.

It means you are trying to equate an unconscious action (release/ follow through) of a pitcher to a very conscious action by Danny, over by your own calcs a greater distance aside from the basic facts like "swinging your arm as hard as possible to throw an object is not really comparable to consciously catching an object"

And that's touching the surface of the problems here, from assumptions about the distance, to such things as "hand movement speed".

But to stick to your own descriptions, that would need to be the average speed of the pitchers arm over, to quote you, "the exponentially greater distance of 3 ft". Which a pitcher doesn't do. Ergo that's not the same thing

[Guy1]

like catching a bullet from a woman attempting suicide several feet in front of him (the gun was next to her head).

Found it!
https://i.imgur.com/pW9JHHW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tOeLnkn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ilaMXgN.jpg

Another bullet catch
https://i.imgur.com/mzHglT3.jpg

An arrow catch
https://i.imgur.com/xQrMwpE.jpg

Machine gun evasion
https://i.imgur.com/qMTzOQN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/npdDrpt.jpg

Blitzing
https://i.imgur.com/3Ihy9nM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/SoiDGeb.jpg

[Pendaran]

Yeah, I've been saying that feat is too good ;p It begins to verge on something the Sentry did (the Sentry's is better, but still).

The bullet catch below it is the one that Morning has spent the majority of this thread trying to lowball on a mass of contradictory, fabricated and unsustainable grounds. Scans of it already posted.

He's done better stuff than the other feats, but they've been noted as part of his general capacity, sure.

[The Arbiter]

OMG did Guy1 just post links instead of GIANT image scans?? AND he gave context to separate each one with a generalized description!!?? ;P

[Morning]

Hardly a sentence goes by in your argument that does not contain an attempt (like "build a mountain on top of" or "leap from rationale to rationale") to control the narrative of mine. So, I think I'll find it too tedious to reply to this one point-by-point. I'll just summarize my position for myself (more or less by theme, and in order of importance).

SPEED

1) When faced with (a) a bullet-catch from a faster bullet from farther away under certain conditions and (b) a bullet-catch from close distance with favorable conditions, it seems intuitive to some to treat these catches as equivalent. However, whether they are equivalent, or nowhere near, depends entirely on the speeds and distances involved. Based solely on the numbers we actually know, they are not remotely equivalent.
2) The algebra that leads us to that conclusion is based on the average velocity each catcher's hand must have maintained to intercept their respective bullet where it did. The average is based on the total flight time of the bullet in BOTH cases, as there is no available evidence to assert a more specific time frame (nothing in the comic shows when exactly Danny located the bullet).
3) Anyone is free to assume a different time frame (i.e. "I think Danny only saw the bullet when when it was X feet away"). Just be aware that assuming is what we're doing either way, and that the entire argument hinges on it.

PERCEPTION

1) In the panel immediately preceding the bullet catch, Danny tilts his head and moves his eyes to corner as if angling to see over his left shoulder. Behind his left shoulder is a glass door with a line-of-sight to the shooter. Furthermore, in addition to knowing an assassination squad is out there (which is within his powerset to sense), he also knows they are listening (which is unexplained by his powerset to sense). The on-panel evidence that they are listening is that one of them is visibly pointing an antenna at the house, standing next to a spotter and a shooter. Whether he sees, hears or otherwise senses this listening equipment is irrelevant, as any would suggest a level of perceptual acuity over that distance by which he could pick up the shot. Anything further is unknowable.
2) In a somewhat tangential point, I have expressed my personally belief that Danny could catch a bullet blindfolded. On panel, if we are not allowed to "make up our own comics" to piece together action between panels, the fact is that that he has his eyes closed when he makes this catch.

TIME

1) Whatever happens between panels 1 and 2 on the bullet-catch page, we know enough time has passed for an old man to dive forward from a chair. No art shows what happens between the panels. However, there is a window, there is a man expecting an attack through the window, and there is him reacting to the attack through the window--for which I think the logic of visual storytelling speaks for itself.
2)However, this point emerged earlier in the thread before I noticed that Danny is literally starting to look out the window in the previous panel, and so doesn't matter much anymore.

[The Watcher]

Moderator Mode Engaged:

Morning, you are making assumptions and inferences about circumstances which are not even hinted at in the comic panels in order to lowball the feat depicted. Doing so means you are acting contrary to the rules and standards regarding feats on Rumbles, which makes it impossible for you to have a meaningful debate with those on this thread abiding by those things. Because of that you may no longer participate in this thread.

[Guy1]

NVM, sorry Watch, didn't see you there.

[The Arbiter]

Ok! Moving on to other stuff then.

The Landlords were capable of entering a vehicle at such speeds, it appeared like teleportation to the average human witnesses. They also casually evaded blows from master fighters like the Musicians, while they were intentionally holding themselves between said fighters.

The Beast blitzed them as they leapt at him. Moments later he blitzed one of them again in such a way that his fists were blurring and blows got through his defense.

Later Singh starts blurring his fists in much the same way against Beast, but with an important difference: none of his blows land and in fact Beast manages to grab both of his wrists and restrain him.

These are the better speed feats to use imo.

[Slade1]

The Beast, in the same casino where he fought the Couple, raises his leg high in the air and bring it down and the power splits the casino in half. It was just a casual thing that he did. He also plowed through the Lion's Roar from the landlord.

[The Arbiter]

The Beast, in the same casino where he fought the Couple, raises his leg high in the air and bring it down and the power splits the casino in half. It was just a casual thing that he did. He also plowed through the Lion's Roar from the landlord.

Careful with the wording. He didn't split the whole building in half methinks. Just a table and a wall iirc

[Pendaran]

Ok! Moving on to other stuff then.

The Landlords were capable of entering a vehicle at such speeds, it appeared like teleportation to the average human witnesses. They also casually evaded blows from master fighters like the Musicians, while they were intentionally holding themselves between said fighters.

The Beast blitzed them as they leapt at him. Moments later he blitzed one of them again in such a way that his fists were blurring and blows got through his defense.

Later Singh starts blurring his fists in much the same way against Beast, but with an important difference: none of his blows land and in fact Beast manages to grab both of his wrists and restrain him.

These are the better speed feats to use imo.

I don't really see them as putting the Beast past Iron Fist given his own stuff is what that comes down to and Danny's ranged/area game is good enough for a helicarrier crash. Presuming it closes to hand to hand, the Beast isn't coming into that without having taken some hits the guy is at minimum going to get some hurt from, which when fighting a guy in his speed bracket opens him up to, you know, direct IF strikes wrecking him.

[Slade1]

Careful with the wording. He didn't split the whole building in half methinks. Just a table and a wall iirc

I haven't watched the movie in awhile so I'll take your word for it. Thanks.

[big_adventure]

Why would we assume that?

Let's say I assume the bullet was 5 ft away when Danny noticed it. Why would I be wrong?

This, so much this. 25 feet is ridiculous to begin with - the window isn't any more than 10 feet or so from Danny and it's BEHIND him. And the 4 to 1 speed thing was, as Sharp said, lowballing the difference in bullet speeds. Plus, again, Danny doesn't know exactly when the bullet is going to be fired and doesn't know exactly what it's trajectory is going to be.

I'll make an allusion to another scene we have debated here a couple of times: In the first X-Men movie, Magneto picks up a crap ton of guns and points them at cops. He then fires one of the guns about a foot from a cop's head, and catches the bullet and holds it there before it kills the guy. Does this make Magneto a confirmed bullet-timer? Or do we allow the fact that it's MUCH easier for Mags to stop that bullet since he knew exactly when it was going to fire and exactly the trajectory it was going to follow?

Hint, we went with the second choice here.

[Nik Hasta]

Careful with the wording. He didn't split the whole building in half methinks. Just a table and a wall iirc

Can confirm, it was a table and a wall. A wall with wooden panelling and windows in it no less.

He also dug a trench into the floor which looks to be some form of stone.

Still an impressive thing for kicking /at/ something.