Real talk. Was Slott's run HONESTLY better than Michelinie's?

[Lukmendes]

Foggel became a pretty cool characther in the Spec Spidey cartoon, that was a pretty good version.

Foswell was just doing the same thing as the comics version, though I think he was never "Big Man" on it, so the cartoon he's basicaly doing a Lois Lane while in the comics he was trying to redeem himself and he was thankful to JJ giving him a chance.

Yeah, I can see that. I wonder if the lack of subtly had something to do with that? In many cases, we're told what the characters are thinking/feeling, either through the narration or dialogue /thought balloons.

I think the main problem is just that there wasn't anything else to them, everybody had agressive personalities, but Peter himself was fine, JJ was only mildly annoying at worst, and Foswell was fine, but the other supporting cast, they were just empty, mostly one dimensional, and, I just didn't find them likable.

The way that Peter's love life was handled was probably the most grating thing for me, given how over the top it got and how thin the girlfriend characters were written (Betty Brant and early Gwen Stacy really lacked a lot of substance, IMHO). This is one point where I will maintain that Ultimate absolutely improved on the source material; while one could roll their eyes at the idea of a fifteen-year-old Peter and MJ thinking that they're going to be partners for the rest of their lives, I think the writing had enough nuance and depth to it to sell the readers that these kids where in love with each other for real. Also, it showed that, not just told it.

The relationship with Betty is for me, the worst in Spider-Man, period. Up until ASM#9 (In other words, on the third issue they were dating) it was kinda fine since she had likable traits, but after that she kept getting jealous of Liz or avoiding Peter, and then she cheated on Peter with Ned, the only times her bitching were justified were when she was worried about Peter taking risks and in ASM#25 when Peter goaded JJ into using the Spider-Slayer, because now Spider-Man, the guy who saved her, now had to fight a robot because of Peter, but again, she was still mostly annoying and makes you wonder why Peter wanted to marry her to begin with, was he that lonely? Lol

And yeah, Gwen was annoying too, basicaly a Liz before she got a crush on Peter, with the one difference that she kinda but not really is willing to give Peter a chance, and she kept bullying him despite having that crush, so yeah...

One think I do think that the old ASM often did pretty well was pacing it's stories. While I do prefer the depth that well-written decompression offers over the done-in-one compression method and do think that the dialogue writing has aged badly, if you take the stories on a narrative level, they do a really good job of covering everything the plot needs to work while having enough room to breathe (the first Vulture story, the Living Brain, and the one with Jameson and the first Spider Slayer are the standouts to me). They also did some really good multi-part stories, too (Crime Master/ Green Goblin turf war and Master Planner, for example), but those aren't one-shots.

While I don't really have a preference for compressed or decompressed, what I don't really like in old ASM is extreme compression, sure that was normal for Silver Age, but still, not really my cup of tea, they shoved a lot of plot and it felt rushed because how little time was spent on them, they had this need to try to put everyone on the comics, even though that's not really needed. ASM#15 has an annoying case of this since Kraven did something on Peter and his hands kept shaking as a sub plot, but it did nothing to actualy affect Peter's life and neither did affect their battle later on, so it was all a big waste of time.

[Miles To Go]

Gwen was annoying too, basicaly a Liz before she got a crush on Peter, with the one difference that she kinda but not really is willing to give Peter a chance, and she kept bullying him despite having that crush, so yeah....

Reminds me a little of Helga and Arnold

[Lukmendes]

Reminds me a little of Helga and Arnold

Well, just like that character, the best way to describe old Gwen is a tsundere, hell maybe she even did the first tsundere head turn:

[MJS]

David Michelinie's run was head and shoulders - and torso, hips, legs, and feet - above Dan Slott.

I would read Howard Mackie's run before ever reading anything by Dan Slott ever again.

I would even read Terry Kavanaugh, but would have to hold my nose. Still, marginally better than Slott.

[WebLurker]

Foswell was just doing the same thing as the comics version, though I think he was never "Big Man" on it, so the cartoon he's basicaly doing a Lois Lane while in the comics he was trying to redeem himself and he was thankful to JJ giving him a chance.

Yeah, in the cartoon, Foswell was never a criminal. I actually found the comics version more interesting, positioning him as a reformed criminal. (Conversely, the Spectacular cartoon had a far more interesting version of his Enforcers than the old 616 cartoon. That does seem to be a pattern, though. I first saw the Enforcers in the Ultimate comics and they were some of the most interesting villain characters in the series, with distinct personalities. In the old ASM issues, though, they were just generic thugs.)

I think the main problem is just that there wasn't anything else to them, everybody had agressive personalities, but Peter himself was fine, JJ was only mildly annoying at worst, and Foswell was fine, but the other supporting cast, they were just empty, mostly one dimensional, and, I just didn't find them likable.

I think that Peter was kind of unlikable in some of those later Lee/Ditko issues, too. However, I will agree that the characters seemed a lot flatter than they have been in later retellings and adaptations.

The relationship with Betty is for me, the worst in Spider-Man, period. Up until ASM#9 (In other words, on the third issue they were dating) it was kinda fine since she had likable traits, but after that she kept getting jealous of Liz or avoiding Peter, and then she cheated on Peter with Ned, the only times her bitching were justified were when she was worried about Peter taking risks and in ASM#25 when Peter goaded JJ into using the Spider-Slayer, because now Spider-Man, the guy who saved her, now had to fight a robot because of Peter, but again, she was still mostly annoying and makes you wonder why Peter wanted to marry her to begin with, was he that lonely? Lol

Yeah, they did have way too much drama and not as much showing why they liked being together at all, and on top of that, she didn't really have much of a personality, as I recall (I'm kind of starting to see why Mary Jane became so popular and has had more staying power as a love interest character than the other ones).

And yeah, Gwen was annoying too, basicaly a Liz before she got a crush on Peter, with the one difference that she kinda but not really is willing to give Peter a chance, and she kept bullying him despite having that crush, so yeah...

I'm personally finding Lee/Ditko-era Gwen to be the most annoying. I have to admit that I don't find Liz that memorable (the Spectacular cartoon and Homecoming movie really did an improvement), therefore not annoying to me and the idea that Peter and Betty had communication problems is at least an interesting idea on paper (I think the execution suffered considerably, though). However, the whole "I don't like this guy but am somehow attracted to him" thing that Gwen had is really grating to me. For starters, we're repeatedly told this but it's never really justified why; I don't really understand why Gwen would be interested in Peter given that she really quickly decides that she doesn't like him. She's also enough of a mean little you-know-what that I find it very hard to root for them getting together.

While I found the ASM movie's version of Gwen to be a paper-thin plot device, I could at least understand why Peter would be interested in her (smart, pretty, and a generally nice person, what's not to like?). The Spectacular cartoon also handled it pretty well. Even the short-lived Spidey comic series at least gave us scenes of them having fun together. I guess if I'm going to get invested in a love story, I want to be able to understand the underlying mechanics of the relationship and have something more substantial than just "Hey, you're cute" or "I like him/her because that's what the author's say." Case in point, I really liked the Peter/Mary Jane relationships in the Ultimate comics and Raimi movies since I think they hit the right notes in showing why they were a couple, the dynamics (both the positive and the messy stuff to fix), and that there was something substantial to the relationship.

I suppose as a for example, in ASM, when Peter is trying to think of a way to propose to Betty after Ned Leeds beat him to the punch, I found that really hard to buy into (even if we grant that marrying that young wasn't unheard of at the time of original publication and Peter himself wasn't thinking clearly and making a bad decision), since as written they didn't seem close enough for Peter to be seriously considering marrying Betty. Conversely, in Ultimate, it was something of a running joke to have Peter and MJ think or mention that they wanted to get married when they were old enough (or have other characters suggest as much), all at age fifteen when such an idea would be extremely premature. However, the writing of the relationship the characters had was developed enough that it made sense why they would think that and it was convincing enough that the reader could buy that it was more than a mere teenage crush. Had ASM been able to show that their Peter and Betty supposedly had that kind of relationship (which I think was authorial intent, given that the character keep saying things to that effect), I the story might've worked better for me.

While I don't really have a preference for compressed or decompressed, what I don't really like in old ASM is extreme compression, sure that was normal for Silver Age, but still, not really my cup of tea, they shoved a lot of plot and it felt rushed because how little time was spent on them, they had this need to try to put everyone on the comics, even though that's not really needed. ASM#15 has an annoying case of this since Kraven did something on Peter and his hands kept shaking as a sub plot, but it did nothing to actualy affect Peter's life and neither did affect their battle later on, so it was all a big waste of time.

Fair enough. I might need to double check my trades sometime and see how many of the story are as well-paced as I'm remembering. I do think that the compression really cut down on character development of the supporting cast (villains just seem to instinctively choose crime when getting superpowers, often for no real reason at all).

[Lukmendes]

I think that Peter was kind of unlikable in some of those later Lee/Ditko issues, too. However, I will agree that the characters seemed a lot flatter than they have been in later retellings and adaptations.

Well, he seemed to be mostly the same-ish in college, though there was that dumb moment in ASM#36 which he refused to go to some girl's party because she showed she was really interested in him being smart, 'cause it somehow reminded him of Betty because she apparently dated Peter because of his intelligence, nevermind that she never actualy showed such traits, that was a really dumb excuse just to keep him isolated... That aside there was this small patterns of him feeling good about himself, then something happens with Aunt May and he's blaming himself for whatever, and two opportunities he was just being a real douche with Johnny (Crashed into his party just to annoy him in ASM#8, and was planning to hit on his current girlfriend in ASM#21)

Yeah, they did have way too much drama and not as much showing why they liked being together at all, and on top of that, she didn't really have much of a personality, as I recall (I'm kind of starting to see why Mary Jane became so popular and has had more staying power as a love interest character than the other ones).

Well, MJ was just as agressively one dimensional as everyone else, she just wasn't annoying so her popularity is understandable lol.

I'm personally finding Lee/Ditko-era Gwen to be the most annoying. I have to admit that I don't find Liz that memorable (the Spectacular cartoon and Homecoming movie really did an improvement), therefore not annoying to me and the idea that Peter and Betty had communication problems is at least an interesting idea on paper (I think the execution suffered considerably, though). However, the whole "I don't like this guy but am somehow attracted to him" thing that Gwen had is really grating to me. For starters, we're repeatedly told this but it's never really justified why; I don't really understand why Gwen would be interested in Peter given that she really quickly decides that she doesn't like him. She's also enough of a mean little you-know-what that I find it very hard to root for them getting together.

They do explain why she's attracted to him though, it's because Peter is the only man who doesn't keep giving her attention... Yeah, really lame justification, but hey, Liz got a massive crush on Peter because he disguised himself as Spider-Man to go fight Otto, just because he had a lot of courage her opinion on him did a complete 180º, then we have Gwen starting to dislike Peter because he ran away when Looter invaded a museum... Yeah female characters were **** until MJ arrived (Though Gwen did get improvements little by little as soon as Romita arrived, but MJ debutted not soon after, and hell, even when she showed up in ASM#25 her personality was nice of the little we see of it).

While I found the ASM movie's version of Gwen to be a paper-thin plot device, I could at least understand why Peter would be interested in her (smart, pretty, and a generally nice person, what's not to like?). The Spectacular cartoon also handled it pretty well. Even the short-lived Spidey comic series at least gave us scenes of them having fun together. I guess if I'm going to get invested in a love story, I want to be able to understand the underlying mechanics of the relationship and have something more substantial than just "Hey, you're cute" or "I like him/her because that's what the author's say." Case in point, I really liked the Peter/Mary Jane relationships in the Ultimate comics and Raimi movies since I think they hit the right notes in showing why they were a couple, the dynamics (both the positive and the messy stuff to fix), and that there was something substantial to the relationship.

I suppose as a for example, in ASM, when Peter is trying to think of a way to propose to Betty after Ned Leeds beat him to the punch, I found that really hard to buy into (even if we grant that marrying that young wasn't unheard of at the time of original publication and Peter himself wasn't thinking clearly and making a bad decision), since as written they didn't seem close enough for Peter to be seriously considering marrying Betty. Conversely, in Ultimate, it was something of a running joke to have Peter and MJ think or mention that they wanted to get married when they were old enough (or have other characters suggest as much), all at age fifteen when such an idea would be extremely premature. However, the writing of the relationship the characters had was developed enough that it made sense why they would think that and it was convincing enough that the reader could buy that it was more than a mere teenage crush. Had ASM been able to show that their Peter and Betty supposedly had that kind of relationship (which I think was authorial intent, given that the character keep saying things to that effect), I the story might've worked better for me.

Yeah, the problem with Peter and Betty's relationship was just that we see much of the positives on it, mostly the negatives, hell, we've never even see them going on a date for ****'s sake, or even actualy enjoying each other's company post issue #9. Peter and Bobbi also had the same problem which is why it's another **** relationship.

Fair enough. I might need to double check my trades sometime and see how many of the story are as well-paced as I'm remembering. I do think that the compression really cut down on character development of the supporting cast (villains just seem to instinctively choose crime when getting superpowers, often for no real reason at all).

Only supporting character who got an understandable development was Foswell, but even him we don't see much. Liz got that "I saw Peter having big balls now I have crush on him" which did a sudden and complete 180º on her opinion on him, and Flash just suddenly started to show interest in Spider-Man at some point. Only those 3 got development and none were well made.

As for villains, Chameleon, Vulture, Tinkerer, Sandman, Big Man, Crime Master, Enforcers, Cat were always villains, Otto, Lizard, Scorpion had something affecting their brains to make them evil, Electro did moraly questionaly **** (He was gonna let a guy die in a high tension pole if he didn't get paid) so he was a villain in potential, Norman was already a criminal since he got Stromm arrested just to get full control of Oscorp, Goblin Serum just made that worse (Explanation of Norman's actions were done in Romita era though, but it's just two issues after Ditko stopped writing), Mysterio got into crime on a whim (He was working as a special effects for movies, then just decided to use his skill to become a criminal while pretending to be Spider-Man), Kraven just wanted a challenging hunt, Smythe just decided to make the Spider-Slayer for no reason (He just saw how much JJ hates Spider-Man and decided to make the Spider-Slayer, didn't even say he did it for money or anything), Molten Man was greedy since he wanted to use that metal alloy to make a fortune and was willing to steal it from Smythe, but after he got the powers he just decided to become a super villain, Looter was someone who was too arrogant to have a job and decided to become a super villain (Seriously, he literaly says "I'm too smart to work" lol), Stromm wanted revenge against Norman no matter what, and that "Joe" guy from ASM#37 wasn't a villain at all, the chemicals were affecting his senses and even while they were doing so he didn't willingly want to hurt anyone.

[WebLurker]

Well, he seemed to be mostly the same-ish in college, though there was that dumb moment in ASM#36 which he refused to go to some girl's party because she showed she was really interested in him being smart, 'cause it somehow reminded him of Betty because she apparently dated Peter because of his intelligence, nevermind that she never actualy showed such traits, that was a really dumb excuse just to keep him isolated... That aside there was this small patterns of him feeling good about himself, then something happens with Aunt May and he's blaming himself for whatever, and two opportunities he was just being a real douche with Johnny (Crashed into his party just to annoy him in ASM#8, and was planning to hit on his current girlfriend in ASM#21)

Yeah, him and Human Torch was not the series finest hour.

Well, MJ was just as agressively one dimensional as everyone else, she just wasn't annoying so her popularity is understandable lol.

Yeah, 1-D but entertaining is better than 1-D but boring, annoying, or otherwise.

They do explain why she's attracted to him though, it's because Peter is the only man who doesn't keep giving her attention... Yeah, really lame justification...

Shudder.

...but hey, Liz got a massive crush on Peter because he disguised himself as Spider-Man to go fight Otto, just because he had a lot of courage her opinion on him did a complete 180º, then we have Gwen starting to dislike Peter because he ran away when Looter invaded a museum... Yeah female characters were **** until MJ arrived (Though Gwen did get improvements little by little as soon as Romita arrived, but MJ debutted not soon after, and hell, even when she showed up in ASM#25 her personality was nice of the little we see of it).

Yeah, I think the Spidey stuff in the early issues is the best part of the series.

Yeah, the problem with Peter and Betty's relationship was just that we see much of the positives on it, mostly the negatives, hell, we've never even see them going on a date for ****'s sake, or even actualy enjoying each other's company post issue #9. Peter and Bobbi also had the same problem which is why it's another **** relationship.

Never read the Bobbi stuff, but I'd have to object to the idea on principle.

Only supporting character who got an understandable development was Foswell, but even him we don't see much. Liz got that "I saw Peter having big balls now I have crush on him" which did a sudden and complete 180º on her opinion on him, and Flash just suddenly started to show interest in Spider-Man at some point. Only those 3 got development and none were well made.

Wonder if that was a flaw of the writing or just part of the writing style of the time?

As for villains, Chameleon, Vulture, Tinkerer, Sandman, Big Man, Crime Master, Enforcers, Cat were always villains, Otto, Lizard, Scorpion had something affecting their brains to make them evil, Electro did moraly questionaly **** (He was gonna let a guy die in a high tension pole if he didn't get paid) so he was a villain in potential, Norman was already a criminal since he got Stromm arrested just to get full control of Oscorp, Goblin Serum just made that worse (Explanation of Norman's actions were done in Romita era though, but it's just two issues after Ditko stopped writing), Mysterio got into crime on a whim (He was working as a special effects for movies, then just decided to use his skill to become a criminal while pretending to be Spider-Man), Kraven just wanted a challenging hunt, Smythe just decided to make the Spider-Slayer for no reason (He just saw how much JJ hates Spider-Man and decided to make the Spider-Slayer, didn't even say he did it for money or anything), Molten Man was greedy since he wanted to use that metal alloy to make a fortune and was willing to steal it from Smythe, but after he got the powers he just decided to become a super villain, Looter was someone who was too arrogant to have a job and decided to become a super villain (Seriously, he literaly says "I'm too smart to work" lol), Stromm wanted revenge against Norman no matter what, and that "Joe" guy from ASM#37 wasn't a villain at all, the chemicals were affecting his senses and even while they were doing so he didn't willingly want to hurt anyone.

Fair enough.

[David Walton]

They're both very talented writers who made a lasting mark on Spider-Man!

[oldschool]

I guess I feel more or less the same about both of them in that they both started their runs on a very strong note, had some lasting contributions (in Slott's case, we will have to wait and see but I think we can agree that his high points will leave a mark) but ultimately both stayed on the title a bit too long and their momentum flagged a bit the last few years of their respective runs. The fact that Michelenie introduced Venom and Carnage is impossible for Slott to top but I think Slott's high water mark stories (No One Dies, Superior, Big Time) are arguably better than Michelenie's. I guess I might call it a push.

[TheCape]

Well, he seemed to be mostly the same-ish in college, though there was that dumb moment in ASM#36 which he refused to go to some girl's party because she showed she was really interested in him being smart, 'cause it somehow reminded him of Betty because she apparently dated Peter because of his intelligence, nevermind that she never actualy showed such traits, that was a really dumb excuse just to keep him isolated... That aside there was this small patterns of him feeling good about himself, then something happens with Aunt May and he's blaming himself for whatever, and two opportunities he was just being a real douche with Johnny (Crashed into his party just to annoy him in ASM#8, and was planning to hit on his current girlfriend in ASM#21)



Well, MJ was just as agressively one dimensional as everyone else, she just wasn't annoying so her popularity is understandable lol.



They do explain why she's attracted to him though, it's because Peter is the only man who doesn't keep giving her attention... Yeah, really lame justification, but hey, Liz got a massive crush on Peter because he disguised himself as Spider-Man to go fight Otto, just because he had a lot of courage her opinion on him did a complete 180º, then we have Gwen starting to dislike Peter because he ran away when Looter invaded a museum... Yeah female characters were **** until MJ arrived (Though Gwen did get improvements little by little as soon as Romita arrived, but MJ debutted not soon after, and hell, even when she showed up in ASM#25 her personality was nice of the little we see of it).



Yeah, the problem with Peter and Betty's relationship was just that we see much of the positives on it, mostly the negatives, hell, we've never even see them going on a date for ****'s sake, or even actualy enjoying each other's company post issue #9. Peter and Bobbi also had the same problem which is why it's another **** relationship.



Only supporting character who got an understandable development was Foswell, but even him we don't see much. Liz got that "I saw Peter having big balls now I have crush on him" which did a sudden and complete 180º on her opinion on him, and Flash just suddenly started to show interest in Spider-Man at some point. Only those 3 got development and none were well made.

As for villains, Chameleon, Vulture, Tinkerer, Sandman, Big Man, Crime Master, Enforcers, Cat were always villains, Otto, Lizard, Scorpion had something affecting their brains to make them evil, Electro did moraly questionaly **** (He was gonna let a guy die in a high tension pole if he didn't get paid) so he was a villain in potential, Norman was already a criminal since he got Stromm arrested just to get full control of Oscorp, Goblin Serum just made that worse (Explanation of Norman's actions were done in Romita era though, but it's just two issues after Ditko stopped writing), Mysterio got into crime on a whim (He was working as a special effects for movies, then just decided to use his skill to become a criminal while pretending to be Spider-Man), Kraven just wanted a challenging hunt, Smythe just decided to make the Spider-Slayer for no reason (He just saw how much JJ hates Spider-Man and decided to make the Spider-Slayer, didn't even say he did it for money or anything), Molten Man was greedy since he wanted to use that metal alloy to make a fortune and was willing to steal it from Smythe, but after he got the powers he just decided to become a super villain, Looter was someone who was too arrogant to have a job and decided to become a super villain (Seriously, he literaly says "I'm too smart to work" lol), Stromm wanted revenge against Norman no matter what, and that "Joe" guy from ASM#37 wasn't a villain at all, the chemicals were affecting his senses and even while they were doing so he didn't willingly want to hurt anyone.

Ah the Peter/Betty romance, apparently it was a favorite of Wolfman, so much tha he implied that they sleep together one time when she was with Ned

[FozzyBadfeet]

Noob question, what range of ASM does Michelinie's run from?

I only got back into comics when Slott began his run with ASM.

[Lukmendes]

Yeah, I think the Spidey stuff in the early issues is the best part of the series.

Same, Peter's normal life was generaly meh at best.

Never read the Bobbi stuff, but I'd have to object to the idea on principle.

It had the same flaws as Betty's, like not really showing them enjoying each other's company and whatnot, one of the differences is Bobbi being more mean spirited at times, this being the worst example:

Wonder if that was a flaw of the writing or just part of the writing style of the time?

Arguably both, silver age characters were generaly pretty static, but the lack of balance in these developments made them be pretty bad, and while Foswell's is still a bad development (Just going from a crime boss to being okay with being a reporter to do good because he's thankful to JJ is not good development, change that fast is absurd), it still makes some sense with what we've been shown of , meanwhile, Liz just starts having that crush on Peter all of the sudden, so the potential to do better was there if Foswell is any hint, but that's where the silver age problem comes in, the very fast pacing.

Ah the Peter/Betty romance, apparently it was a favorite of Wolfman, so much tha he implied that they sleep together one time when she was with Ned

I literaly can't see what's the appeal of it, did he write Betty as being less Betty? Y'know, annoying.

[Uncanny Mutie]

I actually LOVED Michelinie's run overall and agree that it is criminally underrated and overlooked. However, Slott's Spidey run is the superior run by far and it's really not even close.

[TheCape]

Same, Peter's normal life was generaly meh at best.



It had the same flaws as Betty's, like not really showing them enjoying each other's company and whatnot, one of the differences is Bobbi being more mean spirited at times, this being the worst example:





Arguably both, silver age characters were generaly pretty static, but the lack of balance in these developments made them be pretty bad, and while Foswell's is still a bad development (Just going from a crime boss to being okay with being a reporter to do good because he's thankful to JJ is not good development, change that fast is absurd), it still makes some sense with what we've been shown of , meanwhile, Liz just starts having that crush on Peter all of the sudden, so the potential to do better was there if Foswell is any hint, but that's where the silver age problem comes in, the very fast pacing.



I literaly can't see what's the appeal of it, did he write Betty as being less Betty? Y'know, annoying.

Nah, she was still Betty as you know her, a really, really crazy woman, fun to read about for sure, but crazy

[blackspidey2099]

As someone who pretty thoroughly enjoyed most of both runs, I find it funny that people keep picking fights/arguments with anyone who votes for Slott in the poll....