Could you see Slott killing MJ to end his run?

[Daniel22]

Do we really need to take digs at people with differing opinions like this? Slott criticism extends beyond just these forums and is larger than you think. It matters little if we are a "proven minority", we still have a voice, an opinion to share, and that should not be diminished or demeaned because it is not the loudest voice in the wilderness.

But considering I find "meh" reactions are often the most intellectually honest ones in what passes for "popularity" in today's genre fiction (as it pertains to Marvel), thanks

I take a look at movies like the ones from the MCU, and consensus worldwide seems to think they can do no wrong, well I've seen most of them and my opinion, while not shared by all but remains my view to have, is that nearly all of them are intellectually empty stake-free tension-less quip-a-minute comedy jams for tone-deaf actors and over the hill former names that treat movie audiences like they're five years old. Those movies don't try at all. They don't even pretend to try, because they make money hand over fist (or rather ham over quip)

While it doesn't grow at an extravagant rate, this opinion is shared, and I find it an intellectually honest one. We don't conform to what the consensus think, so what? If everyone agreed, we'd have no real debates, no need to improve, no need to study, everyone would just curl up in an echo chamber and snuggle up together. A world within a chamber is a world without an expanse.



Believe me, they were. I was one of them. MJ may not have been written as well in the late 90s, but that does not mean she could not be salvaged once Mackie and Byrne were gone, as proven when JMS took over the title.

I wasn't trying to diminish or demean your opinions. I was just pointing out that there is a huge difference between these boards and the rest of the world. It's easy to get impressions based on these boards that do not reflect the larger public. I don't think and didn't say that either way of thinking is right or better, just that a lot more people share a positive opinion. I think the "loudest voice in the wilderness" IS actually the very vocal minority. I think most people just read the book and don't say anything, or don't like the book and stop reading it and move on.

Someone can be intellectually honest and still like the Marvel movies. It seems like you're trying to elevate your opinion by presenting it as the only intellectually honest one.

[Inversed]

I think it's also really clear just by looking at his run that Slott just doesn't care about writing long-term relationships for Spider-Man. Carlie lasted about 24 issues, and Lien and Bobbi about 11. It seems like he's more interested in trying out how it goes for a story or two, and then moving on with another idea. He did mention the only reason he paired him up with Bobbi for that short period was because he liked how Immonen drew them.

Which honestly, I can't blame him for that in particular. If he doesn't want to write a relationship, he shouldn't have to.

For me personally, and this isn't just for Spider-Man, this is for all comics in general, what I can't stand is those moments when you have two characters expressing their attraction to each other, but then one of them goes "I love you, but we can't be together for *insert dumb reason here*"
That's like my biggest problem with All-New X-Men/X-Men Blue, there's only so many times when I can see Scott & Jean be all "We want to be together, but can't cuz I don't know". Get your feelings straight!

The reason the MJ stuff didn't bother me as much as others, is because, as far as I can remember, Slott has only done this scene once, in the beginning of Go Down Swinging. Every other time there have only been teases or private contemplations with the two that they have feelings for each other, which I consider a different case and I don't mind, although I completely understand if people don't like that either. And I still have an asterisk for my full feelings and opinion on that scene until I see the end, because I'm willing to see if there will be some sort of payoff.

[Lukmendes]

Believe me, they were. I was one of them. MJ may not have been written as well in the late 90s, but that does not mean she could not be salvaged once Mackie and Byrne were gone, as proven when JMS took over the title.

"I doubt fans were as pissed"

Never said they weren't pissed, just that it obviously wasn't OMD levels, which is quite a feat if Marvel does manage that someday.

I take your point, but I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that Kraven was a joke before his Last Hunt and Aunt May was around but hardly doing anything before her (beautifully written) death (she did have a nice moment w/MJ when she told MJ that MJ was pregnant, but those types of moments were few and far between). A good moment or set of moments, plus the audiences attachment to the character, can give a comic book death staying power and gravity well past the current state of the character (see also Captain Marvel, whose death was a year and a half after his last appearance and three years after his book had been cancelled). Again, I'm not saying Slott could, should, or will kill MJ, but only that, if he does, it could end up being both good and impactful.

Good points, but imagine if before Aunt May died in #400, she was just being a bitch with Peter, and then suddenly we have her death being like that? It would still be good by itself, but not as impactful because of how she acted previously, and that's what I mean in case MJ gets killed.

They've said that part of why she isn't with Peter is because she had trouble dealing with being the girlfriend of Spider-Man despite loving Peter. Sound familiar? That sounds almost word for word how she just teased and rejected Pete two issues ago. That constant tease then rejection is why people are really starting to hate the character.

They also said it's because both of their carreers were getting in the way, which is actualy fine, so yeah.

[2Thumbs]

I think it's also really clear just by looking at his run that Slott just doesn't care about writing long-term relationships for Spider-Man. Carlie lasted about 24 issues, and Lien and Bobbi about 11. It seems like he's more interested in trying out how it goes for a story or two, and then moving on with another idea. He did mention the only reason he paired him up with Bobbi for that short period was because he liked how Immonen drew them.

Which honestly, I can't blame him for that in particular. If he doesn't want to write a relationship, he shouldn't have to.

For me personally, and this isn't just for Spider-Man, this is for all comics in general, what I can't stand is those moments when you have two characters expressing their attraction to each other, but then one of them goes "I love you, but we can't be together for *insert dumb reason here*"
That's like my biggest problem with All-New X-Men/X-Men Blue, there's only so many times when I can see Scott & Jean be all "We want to be together, but can't cuz I don't know". Get your feelings straight!

The reason the MJ stuff didn't bother me as much as others, is because, as far as I can remember, Slott has only done this scene once, in the beginning of Go Down Swinging. Every other time there have only been teases or private contemplations with the two that they have feelings for each other, which I consider a different case and I don't mind, although I completely understand if people don't like that either. And I still have an asterisk for my full feelings and opinion on that scene until I see the end, because I'm willing to see if there will be some sort of payoff.

Ummm.... no. I remember they'd agreed to go out on a date once or twice. I remember the night they 'stayed in' instead of going out. The half dozen times has admitted to both herself and others that she's still in love with Peter and always will be. Then there's issue 797, which was just icing on the cake.

If you think there's gonna be any payoff from that in issue 800, you're stoned. We haven't had any payoff from any of the teases in the last decade; why would they start now? They're just gonna keep teasing readers with it for eternity without ever giving any payoff, because it keeps the MJ fans engaged while never having to restore pre-OMD memories.

And I can blame Slott for the lack of love interests post OMD. Part of the reason they did OMD was to make Peter 'single and ready to mingle' and explore other stories with other love interests. The fact that he hasn't mingled at all is just insult on top of injury.

But overall, Marvel has made it abundantly clear that they're more interested in newer readers than respecting their characters and long time fans. It's their right to do so, but it's mine to tell them to go **** themselves.

[2Thumbs]

They also said it's because both of their careers were getting in the way, which is actually fine, so yeah.

As long as they end up together it's fine. But I'm not going to spend 60 bucks on another spit-in-the-face MJ/Pete tease from Marvel. Not happening. I don't care if it's the best Spidey game of all time. Pete/MJ happy ever after or no buy.

[WebLurker]

I hate that they had her give that speech.

MJ: Our love will overcome this.

Marvel: Nope. Never getting back together lulz. But we will taunt you with the possibilty every 4 issues to sell comics and cover for the fact thst we're incapable of writing a new love interest.

Just pisses me off. Why have her say that if they knew that it was just a fucking lie?

I suspect that either A.) they thought it was something the character would believe irregardless of whether it would actually happen or B.) a backdoor in case they wanted to undo OMD for whatever reason. Obviously, the Powers That Be have decided that the latter is not needed and as for the former, who can say?

They've said that part of why she isn't with Peter is because she had trouble dealing with being the girlfriend of Spider-Man despite loving Peter. Sound familiar? That sounds almost word for word how she just teased and rejected Pete two issues ago. That constant tease then rejection is why people are really starting to hate the character.

It also sounds a lot like stuff they touched on in the Ultimate comics (a series that had the through line: "these two are made for each other and will work things out").

[2Thumbs]

I suspect that either A.) they thought it was something the character would believe irregardless of whether it would actually happen or B.) a backdoor in case they wanted to undo OMD for whatever reason. Obviously, the Powers That Be have decided that the latter is not needed and as for the former, who can say?



It also sounds a lot like stuff they touched on in the Ultimate comics (a series that had the through line: "these two are made for each other and will work things out").

Exactly. Pete and MJ are made for each other. They are the Lois and Clark of Marvel. Keeping them apart because reasons is shitty and pointless. As far as the average person is concerned, and pretty much every other medium is concerned, Pete and MJ are still a thing. Hell, the first ever Spidey movie trilogy featured MJ. Even ASM2 killed off Emma Freaking Stone to make room for MJ in movie 3. The new Spidey movies have Peter drawn to a mysterious girl named Michelle who tells Pete to call her MJ. Games, movies, newspaper strips, even several alternate universe continuities outside of 616 have Pete and MJ together.

The Powers That Be can fight it all they want. As far as their average consumer is concerned, Peter and MJ are in love and are together. The sooner they catch on to that, the better off they'll be. People WANT to read Spidey and MJ together. That's why RYV is selling so well, despite being a pretty meh book overall.

[WebLurker]

Exactly. Pete and MJ are made for each other. They are the Lois and Clark of Marvel. Keeping them apart because reasons is shitty and pointless. As far as the average person is concerned, and pretty much every other medium is concerned, Pete and MJ are still a thing. Hell, the first ever Spidey movie trilogy featured MJ. Even ASM2 killed off Emma Freaking Stone to make room for MJ in movie 3. The new Spidey movies have Peter drawn to a mysterious girl named Michelle who tells Pete to call her MJ. Games, movies, newspaper strips, even several alternate universe continuities outside of 616 have Pete and MJ together.

The Powers That Be can fight it all they want. As far as their average consumer is concerned, Peter and MJ are in love and are together. The sooner they catch on to that, the better off they'll be. People WANT to read Spidey and MJ together. That's why RYV is selling so well, despite being a pretty meh book overall.

I tend to be cautious arguing that one's position is the majority opinion; it's near impossible to confirm stuff like this. I have seen some pretty spirited defense for a single Spidey, that the marriage was a mistake (or at least had run its course and needed to go), etc. Besides, just because our generation grew up with Spidey a certain way and see that as the "right" doesn't mean that the current generation will see things the same way.

[2Thumbs]

I tend to be cautious arguing that one's position is the majority opinion; it's near impossible to confirm stuff like this. I have seen some pretty spirited defense for a single Spidey, that the marriage was a mistake (or at least had run its course and needed to go), etc. Besides, just because our generation grew up with Spidey a certain way and see that as the "right" doesn't mean that the current generation will see things the same way.

I guess I've never seen anyone defend OMD. The closest I've seen is 'I don't care' or 'It's not that bad.'

What were their defenses for a 30 year retcon?

[boots]

I guess I've never seen anyone defend OMD. The closest I've seen is 'I don't care' or 'It's not that bad.'

What were their defenses for a 30 year retcon?

defending a "single spidey" isn't necessarily the same as defending OMD

[WebLurker]

I guess I've never seen anyone defend OMD. The closest I've seen is 'I don't care' or 'It's not that bad.'

boots got it right. Notice that I never said defending OMD (I have seen hardly any defense to that story, even among people who think it was the right decision to do that story).

What were their defenses for a 30 year retcon?

Usually that it lead to good stories, the opinion that Spidey being a single guy with girlfriend troubles is truer to the character, the marriage hobbled the writers by limiting the kinds of stories that could be told (IMHO on that both the marriage and Spidey being single limit different kinds of stories; it's just a question which limitation you'd rather work with), and personal preference. Can't say I agree with the arguments, but I also can't say that they're wrong for thinking that way if that's what they believe. (Mister Mets also published a series of articles that approach the question in a rational and reasonable way if you want to see why one could think that OMD was the right call from a more objective standpoint.)

[Miles To Go]

(Mister Mets also published a series of articles that approach the question in a rational and reasonable way if you want to see why one could think that OMD was the right call from a more objective standpoint.)

I've seen these "objective" articles debunked in the past.

[John Ossie]

I tend to be cautious arguing that one's position is the majority opinion; it's near impossible to confirm stuff like this.

Agreed. As much as I personally want the marriage to be back I'd never try and argue that my position was the majority because as you've said it's near impossible to confirm whether my POV is the majority, minority or even in the middle.

[TheCape]

If you ask me the bulk of Spider-Man readership (aka, most of the people that aren't in this forums) don't give 2 s**t about Peter being married or not, they would read then anyway because what they want is good stories.

Now, i'm a big fan of the marriage and i wouldn't mind if it comes back, but i'm also willing to compromise so i suggest, why not poligamy, you know Peter and MJ has a very deep and emotional romantic relationship, but they still can date other people if they want to, a lot of people do that today and if a superhero should reflect modern society in some level Spidey should be that one, granted it would be kind of OCC for Peter and MJ (Peter in particular is a very old fashioned guy, probably the consequence of being raised by 2 elder citizens with an stable marriage), but at this point i think that Marvel throw consistency out the window a long time ago, besides the main thing that a non comitted Spidey can do is dating other people.

Also i would like if they get rid of the Mephisto deal, that's something that we don't need on Spider-Man story frankly, is just as bad as the "Ben Reilly is the real one" twist in the 90s (and i said this as someone that loves the guy). Keep the Spider-Family away from the main books too please, except for maybe Kaine, those guys are decent characthers for thenselves but i don't want then close to Peter until somebody is able to make an interesting bond beetween then.

Man i ended up rambling again

[Lukmendes]

If you ask me the bulk of Spider-Man readership (aka, most of the people that aren't in this forums) don't give 2 s**t about Peter being married or not, they would read then anyway because what they want is good stories.

Now, i'm a big fan of the marriage and i wouldn't mind if it comes back, but i'm also willing to compromise so i suggest, why not poligamy, you know Peter and MJ has a very deep and emotional romantic relationship, but they still can date other people if they want to, a lot of people do that today and if a superhero should reflect modern society in some level Spidey should be that one, granted it would be kind of OCC for Peter and MJ (Peter in particular is a very old fashioned guy, probably the consequence of being raised by 2 elder citizens with an stable marriage), but at this point i think that Marvel throw consistency out the window a long time ago, besides the main thing that a non comitted Spidey can do is dating other people.

Also i would like if they get rid of the Mephisto deal, that's something that we don't need on Spider-Man story frankly, is just as bad as the "Ben Reilly is the real one" twist in the 90s (and i said this as someone that loves the guy). Keep the Spider-Family away from the main books too please, except for maybe Kaine, those guys are decent characthers for thenselves but i don't want then close to Peter until somebody is able to make an interesting bond beetween then.

Man i ended up rambling again

This is the second time I see someone non ironicaly suggest for Peter to date more than one chick at once in this place, are those isolated cases or are fans starting to really want Spider-Harem to actualy happen in the comics? Lol

Either way, don't think it's a good idea, it goes against their characters hard, and it's not because Marvel is having **** consistency and/or characterization that the situation would be fixed with more of that...