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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    The wedding itself was rushed sure but the issues leading up to that really weren't.
    This era is not my strongest suite (the Epic Collections haven't covered it that well yet). I suppose there is a degree of subjectivity involved as to how much build-up there should've been. Some people might want more, while others might find that the set-up that they were in love with each other (but kind of not admitting it to each other or themselves) to be enough for what we got.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    Also as I mentioned Ron Frenz admitted he and DeFalco intended for Peter and MJ to get engaged and built up to that. it wasn't just a case of making stuff up as they went along.
    I was thinking more in the grand scheme of things (MJ was never supposed to be Peter's long-term love interest, much less his wife, but when re-reading the older issues, we see it as part of the story that lead up to the wedding despite it not being the original intent).

    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    I agree that the characters getting a divorce wouldn't have made sense. But it would've been a lesser evil. More poignantly though they effectively did divorce in OMIT and as you said it never made sense.
    I don't know. Kinda same difference if you ask me. In any event, I don't see how any alternate path to OMD is "better," given that I object to and utterly reject OMD in and of itself.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starrius View Post
    not to mention, Madalyne was a dead ringer for Jean to the point that she was later written as Jean's clone
    That is the main reason I considered it unhealthy.



    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Ghost View Post
    I bought the comics off the spinner racks as a kid and it seemed bizarre and rushed as hell to me at the time.

    DeFalco: "I guess you could blame the whole marriage thing on Ron Frenz and me. When we were on The Amazing Spider-Man, we proposed a story where Peter asks Mary Jane to marry him, she accepts, but eventually-in true Spider-Man fashion-leaves him at the altar. Jim Owsley was our editor and took the idea to Jim Shooter, who mentioned it to Stan…who thought the couple really should get married. Shooter agreed and went ahead with the idea after Ron and I were taken off Amazing."

    So DeFalco was not building them up to any sort of marriage at all. He was building up to a big soap opera moment of Peter being left at the altar.

    It was pure editorial. Shooter is also on the record as considering the marriage a huge mistake as did (and still do) most of the major Spidey writers of the time. Stan was flat out wrong in this case. He ain't perfect (see the terrible Peter's parents are SPIES stuff he did).
    Then you might not have noticed the build up I just detailed for everyone in the OP posts. which in fairness might be because they happened across 2-3 years of stories.

    Yeah that isn't the DeFalco/Frenz statement I referred to in the OP. The one I saw gave distinctly different details. Ron Frenz has also said on podcasts they're inadvertantly responsible for the marriage as they were shipping them during their run.

    Again as you can clearly tell from the pages and panels I posted.

    I'm sorry but like...you read my OPs right? It's right in front of you there in my descriptions and the pages I posted. They were clearly romantically invovled and in love with one another.

    Which is another way to say that it should never have been out of the blue for anybody paying attention.

    Like dude seriously...an Annual literally compares them to May and Ben before they got married. Peter David has MJ wodner why she said 'for better or worse'. Spider-Man vs. Wolverine has Spider-Man in a round about way admit Mary Jane is his girlfriend.

    I'm not saying they INTENDED those stories to end in them married. That decision WAS editorially driven.

    But it happened to be an editorial decision which made a lot of sense given the build up in play.

    Build up doesn't get discounted merely because the ultimate resolution was not the original intention.

    Case in point in Civil War the supporting cast's reactions to the unmasking were things that'd built up across decades. No one had intended for them to ever know but the story traded upon the established history as build up for the story they were doing. Their reactions all made sense.

    The same is true of ASM #400. No one who wrote those stories defining May and Peter's relationship, her problems with Spider-Man or her health problems intended for them to lead to that milestone issue. But the story still traded off of those things to deliver a story that was NOT out of the blue and entirely logical.

    The same is true of the marriage. I am sorry if you felt it was bizarre and rushed.

    But that doesn't change the facts that it was objectively neither of those things. Re-read the issues (in the proper order i.e. don't skip from ASM #289 straight to #290, you aren't supposed to do that) or else read my OPs for the clear proof of what I have been talking about.

    Excuse me but you are now just outright lying.

    Let’s do a little run down shall we.

    Who are the major Spider-Man writers? The guys who have had actual runs of at least a year’s length?

    1. Stan Lee

    2. Steve Ditko

    3. Gerry Conway

    4. Len Wein


    5. Marv Wolfman

    6. Denny O’Neil

    7. Roger Stern

    8. Tom DeFalco

    9. David Michelinie

    10. Bill Mantlo

    11. Peter David

    12. J.M. DeMatteis

    13. Todd McFarlane

    14. Terry Kavanagh

    15. Howard Mackie


    16. Todd Dezago

    17. J. Michael Straczynski

    18. Roberto Aguirre Sacasa

    19. Dan Slott

    20. Paul Jenkins

    21. Mark Millar

    22. Chip Zdarksy


    23. Mark Waid


    24. Joe Kelly

    25. Guggenheim


    26. Gage

    27. Bob Gale




    I apologise if I am forgetting anyone and we can discuss them if you reply with their names.

    Now maybe you can find me a quote or two I am unaware of but of those 27 people only SEVEN of them have ever clearly expressed the sentiment that the marriage was mistake.

    Roger Stern in fact didn’t so much as say the marriage was a mistake but that the marriage to MJ was a mistake. His reasons for this however made no sense at all and mostly depend upon ignoring all of MJ’s character development since ASM #122.

    Everyone else on that list is either pro marriage, undeclared although it’s safe to presume Ditko wasn’t in favour of it.

    Conway’s case is uniquely weird because he has argued against the marriage at times but also has in his stories and in real life asserted MJ as who Peter should be in a permanent relationship with (which...would effectively be a marriage????). He also wrote several stories intrinsically built upon the concept of Peter and MJ being married. These were not stories as part of a broader run on a regular title. These were special projects with their marriage at the heart of them. Parallel Lives and Renew Your Vows the book entirely about Peter and MJ’s married family life as it’s core concept.


    Let’s also for the sake of argument count everyone who was part of the BND rotating staff exempting the guys who have clearly expressing views to the contrary.

    So now with our skewing the numbers in favour of those opposed to the marriage we’re still only up to just 12 people.

    I hate to break it to you but 12/27 isn’t ‘most’.

    And if you go by ‘most writers of the time’...that also isn’t true.

    David Michelinie wasn’t thrilled at the idea but he rolled with it. DeFalco came around to the idea. Mantlo to my knowledge has always been undeclared.

    Peter David and DeMatteis though were in support of it. You know...the guys who wrote the two most critically acclaimed Spider-Man stories of the/all time, Kraven’s Last Hunt and the Death of Jean DeWolff.

    So when you say ‘most writers’ of the time you mean...Owsley and Stern.

    Stern’s reasons as I said made no sense. And I don’t mean in my opinion. I mean in a “water will freeze at subzero temperatures that’s just a fact” kind of way. Much the same applies to Priest although his rationale was just plain misogynistic. He said MJ was only good ‘for a roll in the hay’ but not marriage.

    I respect Shooter might regret what he did but...Shooter wasn’t ever a Spider-Man writer, outside of like Secret wars.

    And while I am not saying Stan Lee’s word is law you provide no proof for WHY he was wrong. You’ve just stated ‘oh he was wrong’. Like...explain why dude.

    P.S. If Defalco was building up to a big soap opera moment where peter is jilted that’s STILL building them up towards a wedding. The build up would be the same.

    The accusations that you have fallen in line with centre upon how the build up never existed and was therefore out of the blue.

    Are you saying that every moment up until the point where they literally got married wasn’t ‘rushed’ or ‘bizarre’ to you or are you saying them decideding to get engaged was rushed and bizarre?

    Because if it’s the latter then you are conradicitng yourself aren’t you?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    This era is not my strongest suite (the Epic Collections haven't covered it that well yet). I suppose there is a degree of subjectivity involved as to how much build-up there should've been. Some people might want more, while others might find that the set-up that they were in love with each other (but kind of not admitting it to each other or themselves) to be enough for what we got.



    I was thinking more in the grand scheme of things (MJ was never supposed to be Peter's long-term love interest, much less his wife, but when re-reading the older issues, we see it as part of the story that lead up to the wedding despite it not being the original intent).



    I don't know. Kinda same difference if you ask me. In any event, I don't see how any alternate path to OMD is "better," given that I object to and utterly reject OMD in and of itself.
    Surely 2-3 years worth of build up is more than adequate?

    I mean all that was strictly necessary that you’d seen an organic progression wherein the characters were clearly in love, a good match for one another and at an emotional place where they could believably want to get married.

    For Peter he’d resolved most of his crises in his Spider-Man life. Things had finally calmed down and in the wake of so much death and tragedy and his bad relationship with Felicia he was ready to focus upon himself as Peter Parker. And he realized that during all those stressful times MJ was always there for him. Couple that with their obvious attraction and feeling for one another, his desire to marry her in the Wolfman run, his desire to want to be married in general and it is totally logical that he’d ask her to marry him.

    For MJ’s part the only legit roadblock in her relationship with Peter was her commitment issues stemming from her family. But she’d been slowly resolving those and finally got closure on them when she sent her Dad to jail and made peace with her sister.

    She removed the thing standing in her way so she was ready to marry him.

    I agree about the original stories. But i think it’s less we project that onto them and more that what we wound up with happened to make a lot of sense as a progresson of those things.

    It is like how Miles Warren being in love with Gwen was a retcon but also made a lot of sense in hindsight of issues which that was not intended.

    Put it like this. Getting divorced would’ve ended their relationship. OMD ended their relationship, screwed up continuity and had Spider-Man sell out on his values.

    That’s why it would’ve been less bad.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    Again though...it absolutely wasn't out the blue read my 2 OP posts explaining it as such.

    Also technically there was build up to OMD. In the FNSM Mysterio arc Mysterio obliquely referenced Mephisto's interest in Spider-Man. the author confimred he was trying to help set up OMD.
    As an avid reader of the Spider comics at that time, I read and appreciated your analysis. However, at the time it seemed like all those stories you mention were really just more of the same thing we had been seeing since the 1970s and the death of Gwen. MJ in and out of being his girlfriend, MJ questioning her party life, MJ thinking Peter was a flake. The big change was the secret identity stuff, I think thats the strongest point of buildup to something different than their status quo.

    My point isn't that they didn't have the kind of relationship that can turn into marriage, its that the marriage itself happened quickly after they became engaged. I would have liked an engagement period or something more official. The marriage was sudden and felt very unsatisfactory considering all their history. Heck, you could have had all sorts of fun stuff happen during an official engagement period.
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  5. #35
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    I'm dreadfully shocked that Owsley/Priest said something like that about Mary Jane, Spidercide, but I'm not too surprised, as it does speak to the Madonna-whore complex that too many people in real life are afflicted with, this mentality that there are "good girls" and "bad girls," and too often, the definition of that is based primarily on how they express their sexuality, or don't. Besides that, you hit the nail on the head as to why OMD was so bad; it was worse than just Peter and Mary Jane splitting up and "never" being married, it was also Peter betraying his own moral code and deeply held principles in a deal with a literal devil just so he wouldn't have to face the consequences of his misguided decisions back in Civil War.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #36
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    As a reader that was collecting Spider-Man comics actually during that time when the Status Quo of the stories changed to featuring Peter Parker and Mary Jane married in the stories, to me it felt rushed as well.
    So i am basically Reading stories with a single Peter Parker and all of the sudden they got married in the stories,i was like whatever.But even back then it looked rushed.
    Just many years later that i discovered that this decision was a editorial decision because of the Spider-Man comic strip in the newspaper.
    As it have been said already by the others,Peter Parker relationship with Mary Jane was on and off starting in the 70s and is not because of cherry picking moments in comic books that had that relationship in the stories,that makes me think that the marriage of PP and MJ was not rushed as i thought waaay back.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    As an avid reader of the Spider comics at that time, I read and appreciated your analysis. However, at the time it seemed like all those stories you mention were really just more of the same thing we had been seeing since the 1970s and the death of Gwen. MJ in and out of being his girlfriend, MJ questioning her party life, MJ thinking Peter was a flake. The big change was the secret identity stuff, I think thats the strongest point of buildup to something different than their status quo.

    My point isn't that they didn't have the kind of relationship that can turn into marriage, its that the marriage itself happened quickly after they became engaged. I would have liked an engagement period or something more official. The marriage was sudden and felt very unsatisfactory considering all their history. Heck, you could have had all sorts of fun stuff happen during an official engagement period.
    But MJ didn’t think Peter was a flake in the 1980s.

    As for it being the same thing as before...I just can’t understand why you’d see it that way? They were in a starkly different place after ASM #257-259.

    I don’t disagree that the WEDDING happened too quickly after they got engaged. It wasn’t unrealistic in-universe. After all they’ve both faced death more than once, both want to get married so you know...carpe diem. And in hindsight they made the right call considering Kraven’s Last Hunt arose soon after.

    But yes from a storytelling POV the WEDDING arose too quickly. But my point was about people saying the mere idea of them wanting to get married, as in everything preceding not ASM Annual #21 but ASM #290 was out of the blue and worse out of character.

    Like I literally saw someone say it didn’t make sense because MJ had rejected his proposal in the Wolfman run ignoring all context to what had happened since.

    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    As a reader that was collecting Spider-Man comics actually during that time when the Status Quo of the stories changed to featuring Peter Parker and Mary Jane married in the stories, to me it felt rushed as well.
    So i am basically Reading stories with a single Peter Parker and all of the sudden they got married in the stories,i was like whatever.But even back then it looked rushed.
    Just many years later that i discovered that this decision was a editorial decision because of the Spider-Man comic strip in the newspaper.
    As it have been said already by the others,Peter Parker relationship with Mary Jane was on and off starting in the 70s and is not because of cherry picking moments in comic books that had that relationship in the stories,that makes me think that the marriage of PP and MJ was not rushed as i thought waaay back.

    In the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon, the most acclaimed adaptation of Spider-Man ever and possibly the most acclaimed Marvel animated property of all time, many viewers felt Eddie Brock’s manic behaviour in episode 11 ‘Group Therepy’ came out of nowhere and made no sense.

    Critically acclaimed writer and creative supervisor for the show Greg Weisman (who wrote the backup story dealing with Flash’s disability in BND, was one of the creative forces behind the Young justice cartoon, also created the also acclaimed Gargoyles tv show and wrote several episodes of the Spec spidey cartoon) explained that no it absolutely wasn’t out of nowhere.

    They’d actually seeded that Brock was a daredevil who was a little bit in love with death. The most notable example was his tackling the Lizard on his own despite being a normal guy. Many viewers took this as ‘oh look Brock is so brave and such a nice guy’, when in reality what it was saying was ‘Brock is kinda stupid and dangerously reckless there is something really wrong with him.’

    Audeince members miss stuff all the time, sometimes because they weren’t paying close enough attention.

    The build up to their engagement was much the same...except no reader of the time should ever have felt it was rushed.

    The Wedding itself maybe.


    But theier engagement? Everything preceding ASM #290? No. that wasn’t rushed at all.

    POSSIBLY this could be because readers only read ASM or just forgot the...well blindingly obvious fact that you need to take satellite stories into account and so you aren’t SUPPOSED to read ASM #289 and then immediately #290.

    But even if that’s a possibility...that’s on them not the story themselves.

    This wasn’t a new thing back then, readers knew the satellites counted and they knew to properly get each story they needed to recognize what stories happened where.

    So maybe you ‘felt’ it was ‘rushed’ but that doesn’t change the fact that it wasn’t.

    It’d been built up for 2-3 years.

    You are like the fifth person I’ve had to tell this to. READ the OPs.

    There is HARD evidence to the contrary that it was rushed. You can FEEL it was rushed but feelings are not facts.

    I’m not cherry picking any moments. I could’ve gone in for more moments if I had had more time and space.


    They also were not really on and off. They were on in the 70s and then they were off. And then they got on again in the 80s without admitting it. Spider-Man vs. Wolverine SPELLS THAT OUT FOR YOU WHEN HE CALLS HER HIS GIRLFRIEND!

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    What's the argument for Annual 21 not being rushed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spidercide View Post
    He was also a dumb teen who did it impulsively to one up Ned.

    It's not the same as his relationship with MJ listed above
    So it's out of character for a more mature Peter to suddenly decide to propose to an ex he's not dating? I could see that.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    So it's out of character for Peter to suddenly decide to propose to an ex he's not dating? I could see that.
    It wasn't out of character in the context of Peter and MJ given their history and Peter's perception of her at that point in his life.

  10. #40
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    I was going to do a similar post as the OP, going through various issues of ASM, Spec and Web that show that whether or not the writers and editors of Spider-Man in the lead up to ASM Annual 21 satisfactorily set up Peter and MJ as a marriable couple, the writers and editors post ASM Annual 21 clearly had no idea what to do with the marriage and Peter and MJ as a wedded couple. But while that would be tempting (what will happen with MJ’s bulimic cousin Kristy? Should MJ pose for racy photo shoots? Will MJ ever be able to complete her psychology degree? Is Aunt May going to walk in on Peter and MJ while they’re getting amorous? The numerous times MJ demands Peter quit being Spider-man? ) I will highlight one salient example. A few years ago I did a big reread of ASM and getting near the end of the Michelinie run there was a corner box on the cover of issue 385 that read “Been worries about Mary Jane’s addiction? Read this issue!” My wife saw the cover while we were reading in bed and asked “what is Mary Jane addicted to?” And when I told her there was a multi-year line storyline about MJ trying to quit smoking cigarettes, she laughed out loud. Even J.M. DeMatteis, my personal favorite Spider-man writer and avowed fan of the marriage, included a scene a few issues later where Mary Jane wrestled FOR SEVERAL PAGES whether to light up a cigarette. It was laughably bad.
    Both my maternal grandparents smoked and died of smoking-related illnesses; my point is not to make light of the dangers of smoking. But using quitting smoking as a dramatic storyline in a superhero comic book just shows how bereft of ideas these otherwise brilliant and creative writers were when it came to making the marriage between Peter and MJ interesting.
    I think this is lost in all the discussion* about ASM Annual 21 and OMD: whether or not Peter or MJ should have been married is in large part related to whether that marriage led to any good stories and I think the answer to that is “it did not.” THAT’S what people get wrong about the Spider-marriage.

    *(I haven’t been on these boards for a long while and was surprised this debate was still going on ten years later)

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJT View Post
    Both my maternal grandparents smoked and died of smoking-related illnesses; my point is not to make light of the dangers of smoking. But using quitting smoking as a dramatic storyline in a superhero comic book just shows how bereft of ideas these otherwise brilliant and creative writers were when it came to making the marriage between Peter and MJ interesting.
    I think this is lost in all the discussion* about ASM Annual 21 and OMD: whether or not Peter or MJ should have been married is in large part related to whether that marriage led to any good stories and I think the answer to that is “it did not.” THAT’S what people get wrong about the Spider-marriage.
    I am sorry about your grandparents but those stories showcased a very real struggle that people go through and it left a distinct mark on me and made me root for Mary Jane to commit to her promises and live a healthier life. Working with kids, I know plenty of people who experienced tragedy through smoking that also felt touched and moved by what was going on in those pages...so tell me, are you going to dismiss or diminish THEM? THEIR feelings? THEIR opinions? Please, don't be so closed-minded because you weren't particularly impressed.

    All those other examples? LOVED them, would love nothing more than to have stories like that again, because they were fun, different and compelling...though I really could do without MJ pleading with Peter not to be Spidey again, that should have stopped after JMS reunited them

    The marriage has led to good Spider-Man stories, and they've left a mark on people.

    *(I haven’t been on these boards for a long while and was surprised this debate was still going on ten years later)
    People are passionate about the Spider-Marriage, because contrary to what you believe, many feel it did lead to good stories and was a valued element of the mythos. Shocking I know, but we exist. And we're not going away
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 04-26-2018 at 07:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    I am sorry about your grandparents but those stories showcased a very real struggle that people go through and it left a distinct mark on me and made me root for Mary Jane to commit to her promises and live a healthier life. Working with kids, I know plenty of people who experienced tragedy through smoking that also felt touched and moved by what was going on in those pages...so tell me, are you going to dismiss or diminish THEM? THEIR feelings? THEIR opinions? Please, don't be so closed-minded because you weren't particularly impressed.

    All those other examples? LOVED them, would love nothing more than to have stories like that again, because they were fun, different and compelling...though I really could do without MJ pleading with Peter not to be Spidey again, that should have stopped after JMS reunited them

    The marriage has led to good Spider-Man stories, and they've left a mark on people.



    People are passionate about the Spider-Marriage, because contrary to what you believe, many feel it did lead to good stories and was a valued element of the mythos. Shocking I know, but we exist. And we're not going away
    I agree with you on everything.
    I thought she was pictured as like the policeman's wife who is constantly concerned about her husband's safety and fears the time that he will leave to never return due to being killed.
    I like that she is pictured with flaws and obstacles.
    The marriage was shown as having ups and downs like any marriage.

    I really like how MJ stayed with Peter during the time that she believed that he was a clone and even helped him break the Jackal's programming.
    I created a thread about Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire. It is to acknowledge and honor their iconic and popular relationship.

    I created a fan page about Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson. This page is for all the Spider-Marriage fans.

  13. #43
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJT View Post
    I was going to do a similar post as the OP, going through various issues of ASM, Spec and Web that show that whether or not the writers and editors of Spider-Man in the lead up to ASM Annual 21 satisfactorily set up Peter and MJ as a marriable couple, the writers and editors post ASM Annual 21 clearly had no idea what to do with the marriage and Peter and MJ as a wedded couple. But while that would be tempting (what will happen with MJ’s bulimic cousin Kristy? Should MJ pose for racy photo shoots? Will MJ ever be able to complete her psychology degree? Is Aunt May going to walk in on Peter and MJ while they’re getting amorous? The numerous times MJ demands Peter quit being Spider-man? ) I will highlight one salient example. A few years ago I did a big reread of ASM and getting near the end of the Michelinie run there was a corner box on the cover of issue 385 that read “Been worries about Mary Jane’s addiction? Read this issue!” My wife saw the cover while we were reading in bed and asked “what is Mary Jane addicted to?” And when I told her there was a multi-year line storyline about MJ trying to quit smoking cigarettes, she laughed out loud. Even J.M. DeMatteis, my personal favorite Spider-man writer and avowed fan of the marriage, included a scene a few issues later where Mary Jane wrestled FOR SEVERAL PAGES whether to light up a cigarette. It was laughably bad.
    Both my maternal grandparents smoked and died of smoking-related illnesses; my point is not to make light of the dangers of smoking. But using quitting smoking as a dramatic storyline in a superhero comic book just shows how bereft of ideas these otherwise brilliant and creative writers were when it came to making the marriage between Peter and MJ interesting.
    I think this is lost in all the discussion* about ASM Annual 21 and OMD: whether or not Peter or MJ should have been married is in large part related to whether that marriage led to any good stories and I think the answer to that is “it did not.” THAT’S what people get wrong about the Spider-marriage.

    *(I haven’t been on these boards for a long while and was surprised this debate was still going on ten years later)
    I agree that it's something where the well runs dry. Except it's a permanent part of the status quo, barring retcons.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJT View Post
    I was going to do a similar post as the OP, going through various issues of ASM, Spec and Web that show that whether or not the writers and editors of Spider-Man in the lead up to ASM Annual 21 satisfactorily set up Peter and MJ as a marriable couple, the writers and editors post ASM Annual 21 clearly had no idea what to do with the marriage and Peter and MJ as a wedded couple. But while that would be tempting (what will happen with MJ’s bulimic cousin Kristy? Should MJ pose for racy photo shoots? Will MJ ever be able to complete her psychology degree? Is Aunt May going to walk in on Peter and MJ while they’re getting amorous? The numerous times MJ demands Peter quit being Spider-man? ) I will highlight one salient example. A few years ago I did a big reread of ASM and getting near the end of the Michelinie run there was a corner box on the cover of issue 385 that read “Been worries about Mary Jane’s addiction? Read this issue!” My wife saw the cover while we were reading in bed and asked “what is Mary Jane addicted to?” And when I told her there was a multi-year line storyline about MJ trying to quit smoking cigarettes, she laughed out loud. Even J.M. DeMatteis, my personal favorite Spider-man writer and avowed fan of the marriage, included a scene a few issues later where Mary Jane wrestled FOR SEVERAL PAGES whether to light up a cigarette. It was laughably bad.
    Both my maternal grandparents smoked and died of smoking-related illnesses; my point is not to make light of the dangers of smoking. But using quitting smoking as a dramatic storyline in a superhero comic book just shows how bereft of ideas these otherwise brilliant and creative writers were when it came to making the marriage between Peter and MJ interesting.
    I think this is lost in all the discussion* about ASM Annual 21 and OMD: whether or not Peter or MJ should have been married is in large part related to whether that marriage led to any good stories and I think the answer to that is “it did not.” THAT’S what people get wrong about the Spider-marriage.

    *(I haven’t been on these boards for a long while and was surprised this debate was still going on ten years later)
    I lead to somw good stories and it lead to some bad stories, like any status quo, the smoking subplot lasted too long but it was a valid idea for the run, the only limitation that gave to the writtera was giving Peter a new love interest but by thay point it was unnecesary. You also had the problem that Marvel by the 90s was streching the franchise tin by pulling 4 monthly titltes, in a time period when sadly quantity was more important that quality.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    As a reader that was collecting Spider-Man comics actually during that time when the Status Quo of the stories changed to featuring Peter Parker and Mary Jane married in the stories, to me it felt rushed as well.
    So i am basically Reading stories with a single Peter Parker and all of the sudden they got married in the stories,i was like whatever.But even back then it looked rushed.
    Just many years later that i discovered that this decision was a editorial decision because of the Spider-Man comic strip in the newspaper.
    As it have been said already by the others,Peter Parker relationship with Mary Jane was on and off starting in the 70s and is not because of cherry picking moments in comic books that had that relationship in the stories,that makes me think that the marriage of PP and MJ was not rushed as i thought waaay back.
    I'm another reader who was buying off the rack at the time and felt that the marriage came out of nowhere. When I found out about the whole newspaper strip tie in the rush job made more sense to me. Nothing wrong with a good publicity stunt. Their relationship was a long running thing, true, but it was jarring to have such a long running plot point take such a jump (getting married) with no direct buildup. It was like if in one issue of Wolverine in the early nineties Wolvie just got his memories back, out of nowhere. Yes, they were both long running plot points, but usually the payoff to those things gets more than an issue.

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