After Secret Wars

[XPac]

Nonsense. Coates clearly refers to the story right up front and in the whole of his run.

Brevoort's statement doesn't contradict anything, and it confirms that the incursions all occurred so how is that supposed to prove they didn't?

Yeah, but he wasn't aware of the very ending where T'Challa uses the time or reality gem to go back to the NA 1. I can dig up the interview if you want, but he admits he didn't know about that part when he started writing the book.

But I agree that Breevorts statement MOSTLY doesn't contradict anything, The fact that the first incursion at least didn't happen sort of throws a question mark about a lot of things... but pretty much assuming everything else happened the way we saw up to the last incursion was probably the only thing they could do since anything else would be too much of a retcon.

[JKtheMac]

Yeah, but he wasn't aware of the very ending where T'Challa uses the time or reality gem to go back to the NA 1. I can dig up the interview if you want, but he admits he didn't know about that part when he started writing the book.

Even if he didn't know the exact ending there is enough ambiguity there for his version to work, and it was the version I always asserted anyway and the only version that makes sense with Brevoort's statement and all of the events and references since, in multiple books.

Time was not reset back to NA#1. It can't be made to fit.

Regardless I would like to see the reference if you can find it.

[JKtheMac]

But I agree that Breevorts statement MOSTLY doesn't contradict anything, The fact that the first incursion at least didn't happen sort of throws a question mark about a lot of things... but pretty much assuming everything else happened the way we saw up to the last incursion was probably the only thing they could do since anything else would be too much of a retcon.

I never perceived that the events of Secret Wars showed the first incursion never happening. It seemed to me that the intention was to show the people of Wakanda existing AS IF the first incursion didn't happen. In other words I imagine Hickman would have happily had Wakanda reset to an earlier time and the rest of the world reset to a later time.

Coates effectively changed this to a slightly more messy situation where everyone was brought back to the new 'now' but the events occurred. I imagine it is a convoluted and difficult to explain new reality. Compared to a DC reboot I think we can handle a few events happening in a different or confusing order in Wakanda.

[neohuey89]

You are entirely wrong about this. Nothing was reset back to any point, let alone New Avengers #1 other than Wakanda was restored. Hickman was unclear at the time because it was up to the next writer of T'Challa exactly what this meant. But this was resolved as soon as Coates started his story. No reset. the incursions are a clear part of canon and have been refereed to several times since. The last battle in New York between the two universes is also established canon.

So you're telling me that T'Challa didn't roll over on the ground, grab an infinity stone as everything was fading to white, and then reappeared in the exact same place he was in New Avengers #1 when he was with the three Wakandan children explaining to them that Wakanda was on a mission to explore space? That didn't happen at all, because I'm sitting here with Secret Wars #9 in front of me right now and I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it ended. Not once did I say that that incursions weren't canon, but T'Challa did indeed use the gems to restore the universe.

[Iron Maiden]

So you're telling me that T'Challa didn't roll over on the ground, grab an infinity stone as everything was fading to white, and then reappeared in the exact same place he was in New Avengers #1 when he was with the three Wakandan children explaining to them that Wakanda was on a mission to explore space? That didn't happen at all, because I'm sitting here with Secret Wars #9 in front of me right now and I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it ended. Not once did I say that that incursions weren't canon, but T'Challa did indeed use the gems to restore the universe.

It certainly left that impression to me. I don't have the story in front of me but didn't everything go white when he did that? Also, those children didn't suffer death at the hands of the Black Swan

[Kirkpatrick]

Perhaps it was a deliberate intent to ignore that first incursion by Black Panther there. It is still happening at the same time, but he's choosing to ignore it, in part to save three Wakandans as well. Though, now this Panther knows what happens, does he do everything the same as from New Avengers #1 forward? That would suck for everyone.

[CentralPower]

Some writers, most notably Charles Soule in a Word Balloon Podcast interview, have suggested that members of the public will also be from one or other of the universes, and that the two are inexorably mixed. Marvel have so far not had a story that really delves into this.

Bendis touched on this in an issue of "Jessica Jones". A man who murdered his wife explained that he did so because his wife was not really his wife. He had some understanding that the world ended and was recreated, which drove him insane.

Jones did not buy in entirely. But, she could not simply rule out the man's story .

And Bendis, in Spider-Men II, retconned away the 616/1610 universe merge.

I think that was supposed to be a "different" Ultimate (Earth 1610).

Of course, with Bendis leaving Marvel, we are unlikely to ever get full answers to this sort of question.

Breevort comments on what happened with the incursions here. Essentially the last incursion doesn't destroy the earth due to the sacrifice of the FF.

http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com...nther-used-the

Of course, this is contradicted in various places, including Bendis' "Iron Man" run and Ewing's run on "the Ultimates". Bendis' take makes more sense. Some characters remember. Most do not. The references in "Standoff" (where the incursions are referenced on the nightly news) is just...dumb.

Time was not reset back to NA#1. It can't be made to fit.

At the end of "Secret Wars", Panther uses the Time Gem (maybe the Reality Gem, but it does not really matter) and "arrives" at the start of "New Avengers" #1. In the original telling ("New Avengers" #1), the Wakandan space launch is interrupted by the first incursion (multiversal threat) and Panther's students are killed. In "Secret Wars" #9, there is no incursion, and Panther's students are not killed. The only way to read that is to assume that most of Hickman's run has been ambiguated out.

But, the end of "Secret Wars" built in a mechanism for inconsistency (the Molecule Man having his hands in the creation of a new universe) and "the Ultimates" codified that by saying the past is flexible.

Though, now this Panther knows what happens, does he do everything the same as from New Avengers #1 forward? That would suck for everyone.

The easiest assumption to make is that there was a multiverse level threat, which destroyed some timelines. Mainline Marvel (616 or whatever number you assume) was not one of the timelines destroyed. Even beyond the end of the world, there were too many "no coming back from this" moments in Hickman's run. Those cannot be carried over unless Marvel is willing to radically change the status quo.

Just assume that some stuff happened differently. Marvel does not care.

Compared to a DC reboot I think we can handle a few events happening in a different or confusing order in Wakanda.

Traditionally, pre-"Flashpoint", DC reboots tended to be pretty clean. Some events were discarded, and readers got over it. Exceptions, like Hawkman, were notable for being exceptions to that rule.

[neohuey89]

Perhaps it was a deliberate intent to ignore that first incursion by Black Panther there. It is still happening at the same time, but he's choosing to ignore it, in part to save three Wakandans as well. Though, now this Panther knows what happens, does he do everything the same as from New Avengers #1 forward? That would suck for everyone.

I don't think the story was erased or repeated. I'm not sure what book it was it may have been New Avengers (the run where Sunspot is the leader of AIM), they explain that the multiverse has been destroyed and recreated many times, I believe this was the 7th cycle as they put it. 616 as we know it is gone and was destroyed, but has been recreated/restored as Universe Prime (I believe it was referred to as this) in the newest cycle of the multiverse. I vaguely remember it , but I believe The Maker was able to summon a demon from a previous cycle that explained this concept. Then again the continuity of NuMarvel is all over the place.

[CentralPower]

"USAvengers" assumed that the universe was on its 8th iteration (post-"Secret Wars").

But, there is no way that Hickman's (pre-"Secret Wars") runs on "Avengers" and "New Avengers" can have happened as originally shown. There were too many "no coming back from this" moments. And, in other cases, events from his run were ignored. (Thor's redemption during "Time Runs Out" never happened.) Plenty of Wakandans survived "Infinity", and are shown alive at the end.

Assume the Hickman's run was set over the course of 8 months. In the "new" universe, different things happened in that 8 months.

Hickman's run of comic did not even fit with comics that shipped at the time. It barely works with "Original Sin". (Look at volume 6, "Infinite Avengers". Captain America remembers the Illuminati wiping his mind as a result of "Original Sin". But, Thor has not lost his hammer-worthiness.) "Axis" makes zero sense in context with "Time Runs Out". (Who the hell cares if the good guys and bad guys have their morality reversed when the world is ending?) Ultimately, it does not matter, partly because continuity is not a priority at this point, and partly because Hickman's run was never meant to stick.

[JKtheMac]

"USAvengers" assumed that the universe was on its 8th iteration (post-"Secret Wars").

But, there is no way that Hickman's (pre-"Secret Wars") runs on "Avengers" and "New Avengers" can have happened as originally shown. There were too many "no coming back from this" moments. And, in other cases, events from his run were ignored. (Thor's redemption during "Time Runs Out" never happened.) Plenty of Wakandans survived "Infinity", and are shown alive at the end.

Assume the Hickman's run was set over the course of 8 months. In the "new" universe, different things happened in that 8 months.

Hickman's run of comic did not even fit with comics that shipped at the time. It barely works with "Original Sin". (Look at volume 6, "Infinite Avengers". Captain America remembers the Illuminati wiping his mind as a result of "Original Sin". But, Thor has not lost his hammer-worthiness.) "Axis" makes zero sense in context with "Time Runs Out". (Who the hell cares if the good guys and bad guys have their morality reversed when the world is ending?) Ultimately, it does not matter, partly because continuity is not a priority at this point, and partly because Hickman's run was never meant to stick.

I don't see this at all. Some books didn't skip a beat. Take Ms. Marvel. that was pretty much the last and first story. Same with Magneto's story. Same with Silver Surfer. The time jump was designed specifically to hand wave the fact that not all books had an easy way to straddle that gap but some did.

[JKtheMac]

Bendis touched on this in an issue of "Jessica Jones". A man who murdered his wife explained that he did so because his wife was not really his wife. He had some understanding that the world ended and was recreated, which drove him insane.

Jones did not buy in entirely. But, she could not simply rule out the man's story .

That's cool. I will keep an eye out for that.

[Triniking1234]

Is Central Power talking about the 8 month gap before Time Runs Out or the one after Secret Wars #9?

[JKtheMac]

Is Central Power talking about the 8 month gap before Time Runs Out or the one after Secret Wars #9?

I presume before but the gap applies to books before Secret Wars not the Last Days books which all happen in that gap. As did the Avengers World books. Afterwards was indeed a similar jump so we could start from a new point, but not all books did that either.


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Anyway, I think we have answered the OP question. The rest is just the same old arguments that require a lot of context and extra reading to know about. We are in danger of making it seem more complicated than it actually is. In that regard I do agree with Central Power that it isn't that important with the caveat that it is occasionally important in specific books. Never let it be said that continuity is perfect. It never has been.

[CentralPower]

The time jump was designed specifically to hand wave the fact that not all books had an easy way to straddle that gap but some did.

The 8 month time-jump is the 8 months that Hickman's run was set during. The "8 months later" line in "Secret Wars" #9 is "8 months after Black Panther's space launch in whatever replaces New Avengers #1".

There have been inconsistencies. In those cases, go with what makes sense, or what was said by a better writer. Bendis on "Iron Man" carries more weight than an ass-clown like Wilson on "Ms. Marvel".

Is Central Power talking about the 8 month gap before Time Runs Out or the one after Secret Wars #9?

There is no 8 month gap after "Secret Wars" #9.

The 8 month gap is before "Time Runs Out". For the purposes of brevity, assume that Hickman's run on "Avengers" and "New Avengers" consist of that 8 months, plus a month or so before. (Just shorten it to say "Hickman's run is about 8 months of page time, and do not be pnncy about it.")

After "A Perfect World" (New Avengers) and "Infinite Avengers (Avengers), Hickman's run jumps ahead by 8 months. (Both compilations' worth of comics were published over the course of several months, but were set in the span of roughly a day.)

Most Marvel series effectively ended before the jump. ("Spider-verse" ended over-lapping with the incursions, presumably near the on-page start of Hickman's run.) When "Time Runs Out" began, at the end of the 8 month gap, the world had found out about the threat, and the heroes would be focusing on the world-ending threat.

[neohuey89]

Edit: I misread, nevermind this post