Tales of Suspense #104

[OOTCS]

Well, now that it's done, how are people feeling about this issue and the miniseries in general?

I, personally, am thrilled. I was having doubts about two issues ago, getting tired of pages and pages of Bucky and Clint trading quips without any actual meat, but I'm so glad I stuck with it. This issue, and the way it depicted the complicated relationships between the main characters, was perfect.

[Prof. Warren]

Well, now that it's done, how are people feeling about this issue and the miniseries in general?

I, personally, am thrilled. I was having doubts about two issues ago, getting tired of pages and pages of Bucky and Clint trading quips without any actual meat, but I'm so glad I stuck with it. This issue, and the way it depicted the complicated relationships between the main characters, was perfect.

I haven't read today's finale yet but I've really, really enjoyed this series.

Rosenberg's character work on it has been excellent, in my opinion.

[Matternativ]

I haven't read today's finale yet but I've really, really enjoyed this series.

Rosenberg's character work on it has been excellent, in my opinion.

^This.

I'll be back once I have actual stuff to say.

[Winterboy]

^This.

I'll be back once I have actual stuff to say.

[OOTCS]

Okay, I'll go first:

I'm so glad I stuck with the series despite my doubts. Issue #104, and the way it depicted the intricate relationships between the main characters, was perfect.

I've had a few months to resign myself to the fact that Yelena's death in Secret Avengers was never mentioned; at least it can be explained that the Red Room brought her back. And I'm glad that she was brought back again for real, along Orphan Maker—I like new characters, and I hope she gets more development.

It's still unclear to me whether Natasha has all of her memories about Bucky back or just the post Widow-hunt ones, but that's okay. She knows how well they work together and what kind of team they make, and I'm looking forward to seeing them work side by side, whether they get back together or not.

As far as Clint goes...the friendship that the two of them have is so complicated, and I think Rosenberg hit the nail on the head here. They've known each other longer than any of the other Avengers, and yet their first interaction was based on deception. As she wrote in her note, Natasha cares about Clint, but she knows that she has a tendency to hurt him, and she acknowledges that and takes responsibility for it. At the same time, Clint has always wanted or imagined Natasha to be someone other than who she really is, which is unfair to her. Sure, his intentions are good, but he tries to force her into a box that doesn't fit, because his black-and-white thinking can't reconcile all the different parts of her. Matt did the same thing, to a certain extent, and that's why I can't ship either of them with her. Bucky is the only one who's ever really accepted her, moral murkiness and all.

I'm sure this isn't the end of Clint and Natasha's friendship. He will continue to try and push her to be a "better" person, and she'll continue to push back and secretly appreciate his concern, and even though I don't think they'd make a good couple romantically, I think their friendship is important and good for both of them. It's good to have people in your life who challenge you.

[Witchfan]

Is Natasha's new body sterilized, or can she have kids now?

[Godlike13]

Overall I honestly don’t know what to think about this miniseries, I liked the very end of it though. Also the are you kidding me scene had me laughing.

[OOTCS]

Is Natasha's new body sterilized, or can she have kids now?

If Natasha wanted to get pregnant in her old body, she would need to go on immunosuppressants to counter the advanced immune system she had due whatever cocktail of drugs the Red Room raised her on. Presumably, the clones would have been treated with the same drugs, or they would have been worth a lot less as weapons.

Still, as far as I know, Natasha has no imminent plans to start a family, so I don't know if it'll be mentioned anytime soon.

[Matternativ]

I'm a bit torn.

One one hand the story continues to balance the fun moments with the serious moments almost perfectly and overall does good character work for everyone involved.
The heartfelt moments hit hard, the comedic moments are hilarious.
I was especially fond of the fact that she wrote letters to say the things she couldn't bring herself to say face to face. Good Stuff.

On the other Hand I don't much enjoy what the conclusion means for Natasha herself. I'm so sick and tired of red Rooms and her getting sucked back into the never ending downward spiral of lies, murder and all that.
Every single story like that always ends with her getting over it and accepting help and what happens? We are back to square one in her next storyline.
I know it's Comics and everything comes back eventually and that's fine, it really is but other Characters go through a lot more things before returning to an old angle, with Nat it's the same time over and over again without.
That's why I actually thought her role in Secret Empire was really interesting considering she was a Resistance Leader, rekindled an old relationship which I really hadn't expected and played mentor before heroically sacrificing herself. Kind of a Hybrid between Heroine-Nat and Assassine-Nat.
All in all the conclusion to this Mini actually felt more like a prolog to something. Something we most likely won't get considering we already know the solocits for the next few months.

So as a whole I really dug the Mini, the characterisations were great, the art was mostly good, the Buddy-cop dynamic between Bucky and Clint was unexpected delight, both got something out of this BUT...
Natasha sure as hell didn't. I'm not at all interested in what's to come for her and that's a real bummer because imagine her and Bucky going on Missions with Clint showing up every now and then, sometimes ruining their plans, sometimes covering their asses when needed, each of the guys supporting her in their own unique ways leading to a more meaningful finale.
I'd read that and if it was only the subplot in another book going forward that would be fine as well.
Instead we get Nat and the Punisher "on the run from Villains and Heroes alike" *uargs*

[Sneakronicity]

I'm a bit torn.

One one hand the story continues to balance the fun moments with the serious moments almost perfectly and overall does good character work for everyone involved.
The heartfelt moments hit hard, the comedic moments are hilarious.
I was especially fond of the fact that she wrote letters to say the things she couldn't bring herself to say face to face. Good Stuff.

On the other Hand I don't much enjoy what the conclusion means for Natasha herself. I'm so sick and tired of red Rooms and her getting sucked back into the never ending downward spiral of lies, murder and all that.
Every single story like that always ends with her getting over it and accepting help and what happens? We are back to square one in her next storyline.
I know it's Comics and everything comes back eventually and that's fine, it really is but other Characters go through a lot more things before returning to an old angle, with Nat it's the same time over and over again without.
That's why I actually thought her role in Secret Empire was really interesting considering she was a Resistance Leader, rekindled an old relationship which I really hadn't expected and played mentor before heroically sacrificing herself. Kind of a Hybrid between Heroine-Nat and Assassine-Nat.
All in all the conclusion to this Mini actually felt more like a prolog to something. Something we most likely won't get considering we already know the solocits for the next few months.

So as a whole I really dug the Mini, the characterisations were great, the art was mostly good, the Buddy-cop dynamic between Bucky and Clint was unexpected delight, both got something out of this BUT...
Natasha sure as hell didn't. I'm not at all interested in what's to come for her and that's a real bummer because imagine her and Bucky going on Missions with Clint showing up every now and then, sometimes ruining their plans, sometimes covering their asses when needed, each of the guys supporting her in their own unique ways leading to a more meaningful finale.
I'd read that and if it was only the subplot in another book going forward that would be fine as well.
Instead we get Nat and the Punisher "on the run from Villains and Heroes alike" *uargs*

I agree with most of this. I'm actually feeling pretty upset now about this issue.

Everything you said about Secret Empire is exactly how I feel. I loved seeing Natasha as co-leader of the resistance, the mutually supportive relationship she had with Clint, and even how she handled the youngins after going it on her own. It all felt like progression for her character, while this issue felt like a complete regression. That's also one of my reasons for my very unpopular opinion that Bucky/Nat ship is not good for her character, but I know I'm alone here in that thought, so that last page really put me off.

There were parts I did enjoy, like the comedic parts, and her and Clint's arguing was so raw it hurt to read. I just really don't like the place this leaves Natasha in, the direction it's taking her character as it feels like so many steps back yet again. It's gotten to the point that she's so defined by the Red Room now that it feels like no writer knows what to do with her beyond that story, and she's so much better than that.

[Matternativ]

I agree with most of this. I'm actually feeling pretty upset now about this issue.

Everything you said about Secret Empire is exactly how I feel. I loved seeing Natasha as co-leader of the resistance, the mutually supportive relationship she had with Clint, and even how she handled the youngins after going it on her own. It all felt like progression for her character, while this issue felt like a complete regression. That's also one of my reasons for my very unpopular opinion that Bucky/Nat ship is not good for her character, but I know I'm alone here in that thought, so that last page really put me off.

There were parts I did enjoy, like the comedic parts, and her and Clint's arguing was so raw it hurt to read. I just really don't like the place this leaves Natasha in, the direction it's taking her character as it feels like so many steps back yet again. It's gotten to the point that she's so defined by the Red Room now that it feels like no writer knows what to do with her beyond that story, and she's so much better than that.

Yup. Still I'd love for Rosenberg to get his hands on a Hawkeye solo or an ongoing Winter Soldier, Hawkeye team up book.
Not sure I'd like him to write a Widow Solo xD

[Sneakronicity]

Yup. Still I'd love for Rosenberg to get his hands on a Hawkeye solo or an ongoing Winter Soldier, Hawkeye team up book.
Not sure I'd like him to write a Widow Solo xD

Same. I love how he writes Clint, and the Bucky/Clint dynamic was delightful! He really excelled at the odd couple aspect of this book.

[Prof. Warren]

I really dug the conclusion. Nat's letters to Clint and Bucky were fitting and touching.

As for Nat being back to square one or whatever, who knows where she'll go from here. This leaves off on a certain note but it's hardly the end of her story.

At least she's alive and back in play. And let's face it - as long as she's around her life is going to involve lies, treachery, deceit and the Red Room and all of that. She's the preeminent spy character in the MU. She's never going to stray too far from those defining elements.

Looking forward to seeing Rosenberg write her again in the Punisher. His run on that has been excellent and I'm sure he'll do a fine job of putting Castle and Nat together.

[OOTCS]

I guess I have a different perspective because all I expected out of ToS is 1) Natasha's resurrection (or her memory being laid to rest), and 2) closure or resolution regarding her relationships with Bucky and Clint. We got both of those, and while I don't like cloning as a means of resurrection—if it's never mentioned again, fine, at least we have Natasha back, and if it is, then even better, maybe they can get a good story out of it.

Regarding what happened between her and Clint in Secret Empire... Natasha is very easily forgiven for the fact that she's willing to physically hurt her friends, and part of it is just superhero culture, but the fact that she was sleeping with Clint at the time adds another layer to it that makes the punch in Secret Empire #2 downright disturbing. I don't think it's a coincidence that the coloring for that scene had all those green tints that gave the whole thing a creepy, horror-movie kind of feel. And when it comes down to it, Clint will lecture Natasha all day about what kind of hero she is, but he won't stand up for himself and say that what she did to him was wrong. So I'm glad that she, at least, can recognize it and call herself out for it.

Anyway, I saw this series as a bridge between Natasha stories, and not a Natasha story in itself, so I'm looking forward to seeing where they take her from here. I do hope that they stop with Red Room reincarnations and do another story aside from "Natasha's past comes back to haunt her," but I'm ready for whatever it is. And the most important thing is... Natasha's back!

[Matternativ]

I really dug the conclusion. Nat's letters to Clint and Bucky were fitting and touching.

As for Nat being back to square one or whatever, who knows where she'll go from here. This leaves off on a certain note but it's hardly the end of her story.

At least she's alive and back in play. And let's face it - as long as she's around her life is going to involve lies, treachery, deceit and the Red Room and all of that. She's the preeminent spy character in the MU. She's never going to stray too far from those defining elements.

Looking forward to seeing Rosenberg write her again in the Punisher. His run on that has been excellent and I'm sure he'll do a fine job of putting Castle and Nat together.

And Cap will always be the Soldier and Deadpool will always be the funny one (depending on who you ask) and Quicksilver will always be a dick.
That doesn't mean you can only tell one story over and over again with those characters.
Laure Kinney and Logan also stumble over the weapon X peeps again but in-between they get to do other stuff, they aren't defined by it. Widow, right now, absolutely is defined by it.

Give her spy stories, give her murder and lies that is fine.
But change the perspective up, change the stories up, let her go on a James bond (before he got boring) kind of mission or let her actually stick with the positive outlook every single story seems to end upon just to be forgotten next time.

If not for the characters sake, then so it for the readers sake because if you follow Nat's thread you'll realise that that topic comes up a lot because it's not just me who's bored with this.


@OOTCS: Disturbing? Creepy Horror Light? What?