Amazing Spider-Man #799 Spoiler Discussion

[blackspidey2099]

I mean, in some cases I can understand having some inconsistencies, but let's take Damnation, it's said that the story takes place before Thor #603, and that's impossible, because in Thor #603, it's the last time Jane can turn in Thor, and when she does transform she goes solve something else, and she is in Damnation as Thor, let's also keep in mind that in Thor#603 Strange wasn't Sorcerer Supreme, while he got back the title in right before Damnation.

Another example is that Spencer's Free comic book issue, which spoilers:

Fisk is still mayor, and even the editor's notes says it's before Daredevil #601, but the problem is that the story obviously takes place after Venom Inc, since Spidey isn't living with Bobbi, problem is, in Daredevil #600 Felicia is still Queenpin, so that Daredevil story takes place before Venom Inc, so Fisk being mayor should be impossible since that FCBD issue happens after Venom Inc.

end of spoilers

So basically, those guys are really bad at their jobs, some inconsistencies can happen, but those I listed are just absurd.

Jeez, yeah, you're totally right. That's what I meant though about the MU getting a lot more complex since the early days, so it's become harder to manage all the continuity. But yeah, the two examples you used a pretty blatant mistakes...

He did mention Shang-Chi indirectly:

But unfortunately, didn't use it after that...

So I was kinda right, LOL. I do wish Peter used his skilled fighting more though. It's never going to happen though. If Marvel hasn't let him permanently upgrade his default loadout since Stan Lee introduced Spider-Tracers, there's no way they will let him keep his martial arts knowledge. It's so sad...

Damn, that's a lot more options than I thought to deal with Otto lol.

Yeah, what can I say, Peter is a genius after all. He could probably come up with even more ways if written well...

The most absurd thing when deleting everything was Peter telling that guy to delete his research about that green energy, which, while it could be a potential threat, it's not like having that info means it would, of course, he could just try to get everything on paper in case having it in some pen drive is too risky for whatever reason, but they were even destroying researches that were written on papers (Which may or may not include some other guy's cancer research),

Good point. I can't see how cancer research could ever become a weapon, for example.

I mean come on, is Otto so good at hacking he can hack paper now? Lol

I don't know if you watch Arrow, but the second I saw this, my mind leapt to Felicity Smoake, the only other person who could hack paper beyond Slott-force Doc Ock...

HAHA that's a good analogy actually - Guggy is to Felicity as Slott is to Doc Ock.

Man, that just sounds awesome, and hell, if Otto himself did that it would make sense too considering he was living on the data itself, so knowing so many loopholes that Peter wouldn't know to do those things you listed would make perfect sense.

That's actually true - if Slott really wanted to use Ock in the story, he could have made the excuse that Ock saw all of Peter's plans already since he used to "live" in all that data, which is why Ock was able to counter them. Though tbh, if Peter was being written well, he could have just completely outsmarted Ock on the fly like he's been doing since he was 15. I mean, almost every time they've fought, Ock has prepared for their battle, while Peter ends up beating him with no preparation at all. But I wouldn't have minded that either way. It makes them both look good, and even though Peter wouldn't have been performing to his best, they could make an excuse saying his mind wasn't on the battle since hew as worried about Cap or something, which was why he wasn't able to mop the floor with Ock yet again.

[Aura Blaize]

Jeez, yeah, you're totally right. That's what I meant though about the MU getting a lot more complex since the early days, so it's become harder to manage all the continuity. But yeah, the two examples you used a pretty blatant mistakes...



So I was kinda right, LOL. I do wish Peter used his skilled fighting more though. It's never going to happen though. If Marvel hasn't let him permanently upgrade his default loadout since Stan Lee introduced Spider-Tracers, there's no way they will let him keep his martial arts knowledge. It's so sad...



Yeah, what can I say, Peter is a genius after all. He could probably come up with even more ways if written well...



Good point. I can't see how cancer research could ever become a weapon, for example.



I don't know if you watch Arrow, but the second I saw this, my mind leapt to Felicity Smoake, the only other person who could hack paper beyond Slott-force Doc Ock...

HAHA that's a good analogy actually - Guggy is to Felicity as Slott is to Doc Ock.



That's actually true - if Slott really wanted to use Ock in the story, he could have made the excuse that Ock saw all of Peter's plans already since he used to "live" in all that data, which is why Ock was able to counter them. Though tbh, if Peter was being written well, he could have just completely outsmarted Ock on the fly like he's been doing since he was 15. I mean, almost every time they've fought, Ock has prepared for their battle, while Peter ends up beating him with no preparation at all. But I wouldn't have minded that either way. It makes them both look good, and even though Peter wouldn't have been performing to his best, they could make an excuse saying his mind wasn't on the battle since hew as worried about Cap or something, which was why he wasn't able to mop the floor with Ock yet again.

Here's the one thing about that though. After Superior, they both know each other inside and out. Otto knows what Peter is capable and Peter lived out Otto's entire life basically. Every meeting between them now should be them one upping each other somehow.

And I suppose that was the main thing that's disappointed me about Superior Ock so far. For Ock to be reduced to just a simple supervillian throws out all the development he got in Superior....but that's another thread.

[blackspidey2099]

Here's the one thing about that though. After Superior, they both know each other inside and out. Otto knows what Peter is capable and Peter lived out Otto's entire life basically. Every meeting between them now should be them one upping each other somehow.

And I suppose that was the main thing that's disappointed me about Superior Ock so far. For Ock to be reduced to just a simple supervillian throws out all the development he got in Superior....but that's another thread.

That's also a fair point. Ock has access to quite a few of Peter's memories still, so that kinda boosts his own intelligence to be as high as Peter's maybe? IDK. But they could have established something like that before.

Yeah, I was really disappointed about Superior Ock as well. I don't like Ock becoming a villain again at all. I wish he had come back as an anti-hero or something (I mean, even at Superior Spider-Man 17, Ock was being a hero because he had learned that with great power comes great responsibility - I don't see why he forgot that when he came back to life).

[bob.schoonover]

Good point. I can't see how cancer research could ever become a weapon, for example.

Huge thread derail, but it would depend on how they were trying to combat cancer - if it was, for example, a virus that targeted cancerous cells and killed or neutered them, that could be altered to target other types of mutated cells (e.g. mutants, inhumans, those bitten by radioactive spiders) and kill/depower the hero(es) in question. Biomarkers are usually targeted to a certain type of cell and then attached to a dye for use in imaging - change the dye to a light radioactive substance and target "mutant" cells, and you can use satellites to track all the mutants on the planet (no different than using gamma detectors to track the Hulk). The cancer research could be based off of white blood cells from a mutant w/a healing factor - that has obvious general uses for both good and bad.

Being an evil scientist is super easy

[blackspidey2099]

Huge thread derail, but it would depend on how they were trying to combat cancer - if it was, for example, a virus that targeted cancerous cells and killed or neutered them, that could be altered to target other types of mutated cells (e.g. mutants, inhumans, those bitten by radioactive spiders) and kill/depower the hero(es) in question. Biomarkers are usually targeted to a certain type of cell and then attached to a dye for use in imaging - change the dye to a light radioactive substance and target "mutant" cells, and you can use satellites to track all the mutants on the planet (no different than using gamma detectors to track the Hulk). The cancer research could be based off of white blood cells from a mutant w/a healing factor - that has obvious general uses for both good and bad.

Being an evil scientist is super easy

That's a good point, but then it brings up another issue. Presumably, Peter was planning to make his research public once he got it to work, so that it could be used to actually treat cancer for real people. Wouldn't evil scientists be able to use the research then to do their evil experiments anyways? Same thing for the energy tech - Peter would have most likely had to patent it, making the designs public. So, unless Peter was planning to never release any of that research, even when he got it to work, there was no point deleting it at all. So I guess we've found yet another plot hole...

[bob.schoonover]

That's a good point, but then it brings up another issue. Presumably, Peter was planning to make his research public once he got it to work, so that it could be used to actually treat cancer for real people. Wouldn't evil scientists be able to use the research then to do their evil experiments anyways? Same thing for the energy tech - Peter would have most likely had to patent it, making the designs public. So, unless Peter was planning to never release any of that research, even when he got it to work, there was no point deleting it at all. So I guess we've found yet another plot hole...

You could use trade secrets for some things (mostly in-house made chemicals/drugs, I suppose, although how you get FDA approval then seems pretty problematic), but unless you can control all of the manufacturing aspects of whatever it is we're talking about, the design/formula/whatever would certainly leak out somewhere in the supply chain. Ideally (if you live in the Marvel Universe), you have some evil-thinking people on staff and start working on fail-safes/vaccines/backdoors to help thwart the more obvious mis-uses of the technology before you make a public release.

Side note, shouldn't the FDA have shut Ben's company down before it got too far?

[blackspidey2099]

You could use trade secrets for some things (mostly in-house made chemicals/drugs, I suppose, although how you get FDA approval then seems pretty problematic), but unless you can control all of the manufacturing aspects of whatever it is we're talking about, the design/formula/whatever would certainly leak out somewhere in the supply chain. Ideally (if you live in the Marvel Universe), you have some evil-thinking people on staff and start working on fail-safes/vaccines/backdoors to help thwart the more obvious mis-uses of the technology before you make a public release.

Side note, shouldn't the FDA have shut Ben's company down before it got too far?

So basically Peter's entire reasoning for deleting all his company's data made zero sense either... Figures.

As for Ben's company, I believe Slott established that he was blackmailing a ton of important political and other figures by resurrecting their loved ones and stuff. So that could explain it.

[bob.schoonover]

So basically Peter's entire reasoning for deleting all his company's data made zero sense either... Figures.

As for Ben's company, I believe Slott established that he was blackmailing a ton of important political and other figures by resurrecting their loved ones and stuff. So that could explain it.

I think an under-covered part of the whole saga of Parker Industries is that neither SpOck nor Peter really knew what the heck they were doing as CEO. I actually find Peter doing something overboard and ineffectual in that case more or less in-character. I should note we take the scientist at his word that he was doing something good and useful - he could have been a budding evil scientist!. Also, and maybe this is me, I'm not convinced destroying his notes is a horrendous set back - one would imagine he was holding quite a bit of information in his head.

If you think about Peter's history of leaving loose ends or acting impulsively (not turning Norman in -> Gwen killed; expelling the alien costume but not insuring it was destroyed -> Venom, Carnage, Red Goblin; unmasking -> Aunt May shot; putting on the mind helmet to stop Ock -> Dying Wish), this might even be positive character growth.

[Inversed]

That's also a fair point. Ock has access to quite a few of Peter's memories still, so that kinda boosts his own intelligence to be as high as Peter's maybe? IDK. But they could have established something like that before.

Yeah, I was really disappointed about Superior Ock as well. I don't like Ock becoming a villain again at all. I wish he had come back as an anti-hero or something (I mean, even at Superior Spider-Man 17, Ock was being a hero because he had learned that with great power comes great responsibility - I don't see why he forgot that when he came back to life).

To be fair, since Spider-Verse, Otto hasn't really been acting outright evil. Everything he has done has been to get revenge on Peter, for gaining back control of his body (which he doesn't believe he willingly gave it over) and then for taking control of PI.

Even when he joined up with Hydra, he literally just did this so he could have resources to help take back PI, then was stuck with them until Secret Empire ended and has since retreated into the shadows. It gives them an excuse to have Otto act villainous towards Peter, but not to retread the "take over the world" schemes anymore.

[Kurolegacy]

So basically Peter's entire reasoning for deleting all his company's data made zero sense either... Figures.

As for Ben's company, I believe Slott established that he was blackmailing a ton of important political and other figures by resurrecting their loved ones and stuff. So that could explain it.

A lot of things about Peter deleting all his company's data makes no sense. Such as why he stored everyone's personal files in the same servers as his company's private servers or why he didn't create a backup that only he would know about in the event that he would have to delete everything, especially after everything with Sajani, Clash and Lian.

[Lukmendes]

I don't know if you watch Arrow, but the second I saw this, my mind leapt to Felicity Smoake, the only other person who could hack paper beyond Slott-force Doc Ock...

HAHA that's a good analogy actually - Guggy is to Felicity as Slott is to Doc Ock.

Tim Drake in Detective Comics is really good at hacking too, in the story he was kidnaped by Mr Oz, he was able to hack Kryptonian tech... Somehow. So he's not that far from hacking paper, maybe they could team up and make an unholy paper hacking trinity

That's actually true - if Slott really wanted to use Ock in the story, he could have made the excuse that Ock saw all of Peter's plans already since he used to "live" in all that data, which is why Ock was able to counter them. Though tbh, if Peter was being written well, he could have just completely outsmarted Ock on the fly like he's been doing since he was 15. I mean, almost every time they've fought, Ock has prepared for their battle, while Peter ends up beating him with no preparation at all. But I wouldn't have minded that either way. It makes them both look good, and even though Peter wouldn't have been performing to his best, they could make an excuse saying his mind wasn't on the battle since hew as worried about Cap or something, which was why he wasn't able to mop the floor with Ock yet again.

Something like that could work, or hell, just show Otto actualy succeeding in hacking the main servers, and since it would be basicaly be impossible to know what Otto had control over, Peter, with a small ammount of time and being desperate, could use the ammount of control he still has to delete ****, and by consequence would **** over the PI products since they're all connected, and the small ammount of **** Otto has control over could become negligible, and in a situation like that they wouldn't need to destroy fucking paper lol.

As this entire discussion shows, there are just so many ways to destroy PI that actualy makes sense, and without making Spidey and Otto look like morons, because let's face it, Slott-force Otto has "plans within plans" as he said in Ends of the Earth, but in ASM#30 and #31, his plan is basicaly "Let's go to China and hope Parker is a moron".

Huge thread derail, but it would depend on how they were trying to combat cancer - if it was, for example, a virus that targeted cancerous cells and killed or neutered them, that could be altered to target other types of mutated cells (e.g. mutants, inhumans, those bitten by radioactive spiders) and kill/depower the hero(es) in question. Biomarkers are usually targeted to a certain type of cell and then attached to a dye for use in imaging - change the dye to a light radioactive substance and target "mutant" cells, and you can use satellites to track all the mutants on the planet (no different than using gamma detectors to track the Hulk). The cancer research could be based off of white blood cells from a mutant w/a healing factor - that has obvious general uses for both good and bad.

Mostly they didn't go into much detail (It didn't help the guy who was working on it barely showed up, I think he just disapeared after the Mr Negative story and only returned at the end of PI), but in ASM#7 they mentioned the guy was making drugs for it:

Side note, shouldn't the FDA have shut Ben's company down before it got too far?

Nah, he was blackmailing people with the clones of loved ones, which they thought the clones were the originals.

I think an under-covered part of the whole saga of Parker Industries is that neither SpOck nor Peter really knew what the heck they were doing as CEO. I actually find Peter doing something overboard and ineffectual in that case more or less in-character. I should note we take the scientist at his word that he was doing something good and useful - he could have been a budding evil scientist!. Also, and maybe this is me, I'm not convinced destroying his notes is a horrendous set back - one would imagine he was holding quite a bit of information in his head.

If you think about Peter's history of leaving loose ends or acting impulsively (not turning Norman in -> Gwen killed; expelling the alien costume but not insuring it was destroyed -> Venom, Carnage, Red Goblin; unmasking -> Aunt May shot; putting on the mind helmet to stop Ock -> Dying Wish), this might even be positive character growth.

To be fair, the suit wasn't his responsability anymore, F4 were the ones who had it, after that the suit tried to get in Peter again and he thought it had died. And the helmet is something he really can't be blamed on since, well, he had no idea it would do that, I don't think he even ever dealt with mind swapping (Well, Ultimate Spidey did, but that one is from another universe, and how it happened is completely different). And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Tony forcing Spidey to reveal his secret identity to the world? If not then yeah, dumb mistake. You also forgot that the second clone saga only happened to begin with because during the original one, he was so sure he was the real one because of his feelings for MJ that he threw away the test.

And honestly, those other decisions, while questionable, they're understandable. He kept it quiet about Norman because back then, while Norman had questionable morals, he was still kind of a good man, and after getting the convenient amnesia, I think he was being a better father to Harry, so it makes sense even if the most logical decision would be to get him locked away (Though he should really have thought of better ways to deal with Norman considering how many times he returned as the Green Goblin lol). Clone saga one is also understandable because the logic he used made sense. Civil War one is dumb by any standard. The way he lost PI just doesn't make sense because if you think about it for 5 minutes, then you'd realize that deleting the entire company, and destroying every single possible data, and making all of the products unusable, and having no back ups that aren't connected to the main server, again, makes no sense, it was all dumb convenience to get rid of PI, and it makes him look like a moron, and while one can argue those other dumb mistakes he made also made him look like one, besides the Civil War one if he did it without being forced, they made some sense on an emotional level.

To be fair, since Spider-Verse, Otto hasn't really been acting outright evil. Everything he has done has been to get revenge on Peter, for gaining back control of his body (which he doesn't believe he willingly gave it over) and then for taking control of PI.

Even when he joined up with Hydra, he literally just did this so he could have resources to help take back PI, then was stuck with them until Secret Empire ended and has since retreated into the shadows. It gives them an excuse to have Otto act villainous towards Peter, but not to retread the "take over the world" schemes anymore.

Well, he didn't try to nuke NY again, fact he wants revenge like that is quite evil still, but yeah, so far he's less of a psychopath.

[bob.schoonover]

To be fair, the suit wasn't his responsability anymore, F4 were the ones who had it, after that the suit tried to get in Peter again and he thought it had died. And the helmet is something he really can't be blamed on since, well, he had no idea it would do that, I don't think he even ever dealt with mind swapping (Well, Ultimate Spidey did, but that one is from another universe, and how it happened is completely different). And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Tony forcing Spidey to reveal his secret identity to the world? If not then yeah, dumb mistake. You also forgot that the second clone saga only happened to begin with because during the original one, he was so sure he was the real one because of his feelings for MJ that he threw away the test.

And honestly, those other decisions, while questionable, they're understandable. He kept it quiet about Norman because back then, while Norman had questionable morals, he was still kind of a good man, and after getting the convenient amnesia, I think he was being a better father to Harry, so it makes sense even if the most logical decision would be to get him locked away (Though he should really have thought of better ways to deal with Norman considering how many times he returned as the Green Goblin lol). Clone saga one is also understandable because the logic he used made sense. Civil War one is dumb by any standard. The way he lost PI just doesn't make sense because if you think about it for 5 minutes, then you'd realize that deleting the entire company, and destroying every single possible data, and making all of the products unusable, and having no back ups that aren't connected to the main server, again, makes no sense, it was all dumb convenience to get rid of PI, and it makes him look like a moron, and while one can argue those other dumb mistakes he made also made him look like one, besides the Civil War one if he did it without being forced, they made some sense on an emotional level.

Elsewhere on this board, there are discussions about what is or is not a good Spidey story, and what is or is not a good example of "the Parker luck." I kind of like most of the stories on my list (and yours - I was trying to remember the exact Clone circumstances and gave up due to old age) as a genre of Parker luck stories - Peter makes a reasonable(-ish) choice* and a totally nut balls consequence occurs. In the moment, I don't think I'd have disagreed with his choice regarding Norman, for example (although a series of retcons/untold stories make the choice seem worse in terms of how corrupt/evil Norman was before his death in ASM 122), because of extenuating circumstances related to Harry, etc., but the result was definitely 99th percentile worst outcome (beyond Gwen's death, one could argue earlier criminal charges against Norman prevent Dark Reign, etc.). The point I was trying to make was that if you have enough "I thought I took care of everything but I didn't" moments in your life, you're liable to overreact the next time a "there could be a loose end" circumstance arises. I don't think that state of mind is at all on the page, but it's a plausible explanation (less so the next time something like this happens and Peter's response is "why does this always happen to me?").

*In the example of the brain helmet in ASM 600, he made the heroic decision to fight Ock that way assuming the worst case would be he could be killed in the moment if he lost. Winning, but later having his memory swapped into a dying body was not really a consideration at the time (although if he'd had that thought in the moment, it would probably have spoiled Dying Wish . . . ).

[Digifiend]

That's also a fair point. Ock has access to quite a few of Peter's memories still, so that kinda boosts his own intelligence to be as high as Peter's maybe? IDK. But they could have established something like that before.

Yeah, I was really disappointed about Superior Ock as well. I don't like Ock becoming a villain again at all. I wish he had come back as an anti-hero or something (I mean, even at Superior Spider-Man 17, Ock was being a hero because he had learned that with great power comes great responsibility - I don't see why he forgot that when he came back to life).

You know, wouldn't Superior Octopus make a good Thunderbolt? The T-Bolts thing is former villains playing hero.

[darthblinx]

Pretty good issue, but a couple notes.

I really don't understand why people are surprised by Norman's power level. "Oh wow he's so super duper over powered broken".. no, he's not. He just wasn't shown to be weak to things that were already established to not really work anymore. Ooooh, how powerful. I do agree that Torch should've been capable of doing more against him though (more based on his veteran hero status, not his powers).

Happy to see Flash being a hero again, but demonstrating that some of those traits are actually detrimental (like Ock with the subway and child).

And yeah, it seems Peter may be getting a variation of the Anti Venom symbiote (which again, is weird we had that Parker, not the spider, will win speech).

Super stoked about Normie Carnage!

Side note: was Harry Osborn EVER competent? He acts like one of the most neutered males. His father's one of the world's most dangerous and resourceful people, has targeted his family before, and he knows a lot of his tricks because he's used them himself! But he literally NEVER thought he'd come back? Like he consistently has?? "Oh boy, I sure hope my ex wife thought of how to deal with my own father because I'm totally blanking right now." Seriously, Phil seemed like a far more threatening Goblin and he got punked a lot. And don't even bring up the symbiote like it's different this time. It's not. Once again, it's his insane and powered up father going after his children and he has NO PLAN at all for that extremely likely event.

[oldschool]

Good issue but I thought both #797 and #798 were better; seemed a bit predictable and I think this new Kid Red Goblin is a step too far. Hoping Slott does not overplay his hand with the finale in 800----but, boy, Immomen's art is just fantastic!