Can Captain America even admit that even HE has a dark side/flaw to him ?

[capandkirby]

that's my point. they appointed themselves super cops. they go around brutally beating up other costumed individuals. and they supposedly turn them over to the justice system. but from experience, the people that they assault either wind up having their rights violated or don't actually complete their sentences. there's no accountability. they don't follow their own rules but expect the populace to adhere to their version of right (lest they get punched in the face).

The Avengers are a non-state actor. The definition of which is:

In international relations, non-state actors (NSAs) are individuals or groups that hold influence and which are wholly or partly independent of state governments.

This status has been specifically addressed within the comics. There's been entire storylines about the Avengers losing and then gaining this status back.

[capandkirby]

Found it, the Avengers Charter (cut for length and it's first appearance was in the 1982 Avengers annual), signed and agreed upon by the United Nations, I've highlighted/bolded the relevant bits:

BE IT KNOWN
That we, the Avengers, have banded together to protect and safeguard the planet Earth, its inhabitants and resources, from any and all threats, terrestrial or otherwise, which might prove to be beyond the power of conventional forces to handle.

That we shall tolerate no interference in the growth of humanity in meeting its rightful destiny.

That we dedicate ourselves to the establishment, growth, and preservation of peace, liberty, equality, and justice under law.

This is our solemn oath.

United Nations Charter
This was the charter given the team by the United Nations Security Council, putting specific procedures into place for the team, requirements for what was by then a respected and powerful superteam, truly Earth's Mightiest Heroes.[2]

Article One: Organization
The Avengers is hereby chartered as a peace-keeping force of the security arm of the United Nations answerable only to the Security Council.

Headquarters shall be in New York City and there shall be established facilities for the use of Avengers in the current eleven member nations of the Security Council.
Article Two: Jurisdiction
The Avengers, as a group, are enpowered to act as an agency of enforcement on duly recognized and approved missions in all lands, territories and protectorates of member states of the United Nations, providing that the threat in question is super-powered, extra-terrestrial, extra-dimensional, subterranean, sub-oceanic, or occult, and engaged in an invasion, infestation, limited incursion, piracy, enchantment or any flagrant violation of international law not instigated, sanctioned, or abetted by a member nation.
Article Three: Funding
Major funding for the major operations of the Avengers - for upkeep of the New York headquarters, transportation, and equipment shall be provided by a grant from the Maria Stark Foundation - Anthony Stark, Director - with the understanding that the Foundation shall have no say in Avengers operations, policy, membership or the deployment of funds within the Avengers organization.
Article Four: Operations
The day-to-day operations of the Avengers shall be governed by a set of bylaws as put forth by the founding members.
Avengers Bylaws
Section One: Policy and Operations

A.: All Avengers shall, at all times, endeavor to adhere to the principles of the Avengers Charter and follow the rules and regulations of these bylaws.
1. The bylaws may be amended, when necessary, by the active members of the Avengers. Amendments may be proposed by any active Avenger. Amendments shall become a binding part of these bylaws upon approval by two-thirds of the active membership.
1a. Active membership shall be further defined to mean the seven serving members of the primary team and their seven specific reserve substitutes.

B. No Avenger shall be required to surrender knowledge of his or her civilian identity or personal affairs to the membership at large or the United Nations Security Council.

C. The Avengers shall be led by a duly elected chairbeing. It shall be the duty of this leader to coordinate all Avenger activities whether business or tactical in nature.
1. The position of Chairbeing shall be open to any active member who has passed his/her probationary period (see Section Two - Membership).
2. The Chairbeing shall serve for a term of one year, with no limit to the number of successive terms a leader may serve.
3. It shall be a privilege of the Chairbeing to determine the format of meetings and to call special meetings as he/she sees fit.
4. In the event of the absence, incapacity of resignation of the Chairbeing, an interim leader shall be chosen by a two-thirds vote of the active membership.
5. In the event of incapacity or death during action, chairbeingship shall pass in orderly succession among the primary team in a predetermined chain of command arrived at by majority vote among the primary team.
Section Two: Membership

A. Recognizing that the membership of the Avengers may be subject to, and, indeed, might profit from change, procedures for the addition of members shall be set forth.

B. Candidates for membership in the Avengers must be legal adults, possessing at least one skill, power, ability, or talent which is deemed valuable by a majority of the active membership.
1. Membership shall not be denied on account of race, color, creed, sex, or condition of birth or origin.
2. Candidates for membership must be nominated by one active member in good standing at a regular or special meeting. Election for membership must be held within one week of nomination and be attended by a simple majority of active members. A two-thirds vote is necessary for election to membership.
3. Newly-elected Avengers shall serve a probationary period of not less than six months.
3a. During the probationary period, a special committee consisting of one primary team member, one reserve substitute, and two members of the Avengers support crews shall investigate the candidate's public record for any violations, breaches of trust, or depredations, legal or moral, which may preclude said candidate from assumption of full active status.
3b. While on probation, the new Avenger shall have limited access to Avengers facilities and records.
3c. At the end of probation, the new Avenger shall assume full active status, unless objections are raised by any active member, or by the United Nations Security Council.

C. The Avengers shall select new members whenever the Chairbeing or two-thirds of the active membership determines that the ranks are not at optimal strength, or when there is a vacancy in the ranks.
1. It shall be the prerogative of the Chairbeing to limit the number of active members.

D. Active Avengers shall be the designation given to those Avengers who are full-time members.

1. Active Avengers shall be required to log all individual cases into the main computer file, that the entire membership may benefit from the individual's experience.
2. Active Avengers shall be required to attend all regular business meetings. Members who miss more than one meeting per month without submitting an acceptable excuse may face suspension for a period to be determined by a consensus of the other active members. (See Paragraph 3)
3. Active Avengers shall be issued an Avengers identification card and an emergency signal device.
3a. Active Avengers shall be required to meet all CALLS TO ASSEMBLE. If unable to respond, the active Avenger must notify that specific member's reserve substitute. Failure to respond coupled with failure to notify the reserve substitute is ground for immediate suspension of privileges and must be dealt with by a tribunal of all active members.
3b. Active members who miss an emergency call without good reason may be subject to disciplinary action.
4. Active Avengers shall be expected to cooperate with other law enforcement agencies. Although granted certain legal immunities by the Avengers priority clearance, no Avenger shall be considered above the law.
5. Active Avengers shall be paid a stipend of one thousand dollars ($1000) per week. Members may choose not to accept their stipends, in which case the money shall be placed into their retirement fund.
5a. Active members shall be entitled to free medical and life insurance benefits.
5b. Active members shall be provided with private quarters where they, if so choosing, may reside. Unlimited meal privileges shall be provided for live-in members.
6. Active Avengers shall be granted unlimited access to the Avengers Mansion headquarters, vehicles, computer records files, and any other facilities of the organization.
7. Active Avengers shall, at all times, act in a manner befitting that of a guardian of the public trust.

...so, actually, the Avengers do have the right to do what they do. They were appointed 'supercops' not just arbitrarily, and agreed to by the UN.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The concept of superheroes being fascist is largely bandied around by British comics writers (Garth Ennis, Mark Millar most often) and it's basically a projection by English people about how American culture is so much popular than the stuff they care about. And in the case of Ennis it's masked by hypocrisy because his stories often have nostalgia for the British Empire with his story Kev even quoting Kipling unironically. In actual real-time history...since Superheroes and Nazism and World War II overlapped each other, the Fascists hated Superman. Someone in Nazi Germany said Superman was an example of America's decadent culture. Captain America and Shazam comics were popular among American servicemen, and Kirby and others enlisted and served in World War II. Superheroes have always been a product of a democratic society. There isn't one major superhero produced in any totalitarian country in any part of the world.

Having said that, yeah there's stuff in superheroes that's dodgy and weird. So I wouldn't say it's all clear and good. But that doesn't make it fascist.

[oldscottsummers]

Marvel will always protect the golden boy.
Captain Amerinazi declared Cyclops "Public Enemy Number One" because he killed one man in the middle of a fight while he was possessed by 100% percent of the Phoenix Force. The same Captain Amerinazi gave Namor a slap in the wrist for killing thousands of civilians in a surprise attack while he was possed by 20% of the Phoenix Force.

Gotta love Steve.

[responsarbre]

I don't think the question of whether or not they work under some authority or not answers the question of whether or not the Avengers are "fascist", since typically fascists use violence in support of a government power. In any case, the UN Charter era (where they were specifically under the authority of the UN Security Council) only lasted a couple of years in the 90s; it was dissolved during Bloodties.

(Sidenote: it's hilarious that they were called a "peacekeeping" force under the Security Council, because UN peacekeepers and peacekeeping missions are supposed to be non-violent in scope. And the difficulty in getting the Security Council to agree on something, let alone quickly enough for the Avengers to respond to an emergency, means that they would have basically done nothing.)

In any case, the question of whether or not superheroes are fascist is like at least 70 years old, and I don't think there's a clear cut answer to the question. Despite being the creation of Jewish artists in WW2, Captain America as a character has been used in a lot of different ways since then. All superheroes are tied to a culture that responds to petty crime with overwhelming vigilante violence, which is definitely questionable. Not to mention, the connections to nationalism ...

I don't think the fascism argument is something that should be overlooked (or else the biggest creative minds in comics wouldn't have spent all of the 80s writing stuff about it), but it's worth noting that capital-F Fascism is an ideology that has a lot more to it besides just violence. If you're going to call a specific character fascist, you're implying that they subscribe to an entire worldview that no sane superhero would support.

[capandkirby]

The concept of superheroes being fascist is largely bandied around by British comics writers (Garth Ennis, Mark Millar most often) and it's basically a projection by English people about how American culture is so much popular than the stuff they care about. And in the case of Ennis it's masked by hypocrisy because his stories often have nostalgia for the British Empire with his story Kev even quoting Kipling unironically. In actual real-time history...since Superheroes and Nazism and World War II overlapped each other, the Fascists hated Superman. Someone in Nazi Germany said Superman was an example of America's decadent culture. Captain America and Shazam comics were popular among American servicemen, and Kirby and others enlisted and served in World War II. Superheroes have always been a product of a democratic society. There isn't one major superhero produced in any totalitarian country in any part of the world.

Having said that, yeah there's stuff in superheroes that's dodgy and weird. So I wouldn't say it's all clear and good. But that doesn't make it fascist.

Not surprised to hear that about Millar, considering that he was the one to come up with the Ultimates universe. Pretty par for course.

And I agree, the entire reasons that superheroes exist is that these fictional characters fulfilled a need that wasn't being met in real life. Superman was created because Jerry Siegel lost his father to a store robbery. He wished into existence (via the page, at least) a being powerful and good enough who might have prevented such a tragedy. Batman's popularity is the indirect result of the prohibition and the rise of the mafia within the big cities. His 1930's readers finding a crime fighter who wasn't bought and paid for by the bad guys refreshing. Captain America was the direct result of US non-involvement in WW2. I mean, Joe Simon stated this fairly bluntly:

Geek: Can you talk a little bit about the genesis of Cap? How he came about, and what you think he means, as a character?

JS: Captain America was created to be the perfect foil for the ultimate villain, Adolf Hitler.

http://www.mtv.com/news/2622246/inte...ife-in-comics/

In other words, these heroes were created because there were cracks in the system, and these heroes filled those cracks, at least on the page. So yes, the entire superhero genre lies on the fact that superheroes filled a need that wasn't being met in the real world. And their creators couldn't control reality, felt powerless even, but they could damn well invent a world that was made better by Clark Kent's, Bruce Wayne's and Steve Rogers' existence.

[capandkirby]

I don't think the question of whether or not they work under some authority or not answers the question of whether or not the Avengers are "fascist", since typically fascists use violence in support of a government power. In any case, the UN Charter era (where they were specifically under the authority of the UN Security Council) only lasted a couple of years in the 90s; it was dissolved during Bloodties.

(Sidenote: it's hilarious that they were called a "peacekeeping" force under the Security Council, because UN peacekeepers and peacekeeping missions are supposed to be non-violent in scope. And the difficulty in getting the Security Council to agree on something, let alone quickly enough for the Avengers to respond to an emergency, means that they would have basically done nothing.)

In any case, the question of whether or not superheroes are fascist is like at least 70 years old, and I don't think there's a clear cut answer to the question. Despite being the creation of Jewish artists in WW2, Captain America as a character has been used in a lot of different ways since then. All superheroes are tied to a culture that responds to petty crime with overwhelming vigilante violence, which is definitely questionable. Not to mention, the connections to nationalism ...

I don't think the fascism argument is something that should be overlooked (or else the biggest creative minds in comics wouldn't have spent all of the 80s writing stuff about it), but it's worth noting that capital-F Fascism is an ideology that has a lot more to it besides just violence. If you're going to call a specific character fascist, you're implying that they subscribe to an entire worldview that no sane superhero would support.

Um, it's actually been brought up in the current Avengers book. As in that Steve had to remind Ross that the Avengers are not an American organization. And that they serve the world. And it was brought up in Avengers Dissembled (2000's) when the Avengers lost the status and then regained it following the Dark Reign. Moreover Christopher Priest put in his Captain America and the Falcon run that Steve had defacto leadership (command and access to resources) of the US military because of his position.

[Michael Watkins]

the costumed heroes created the environment that allowed for Hydra rule during Secret Empire. the populace is used to not having any say and quickly falling behind whoever is able to hit the hardest. that's not because of Kang the Conqueror or the Masters of Evil.

[capandkirby]

Marvel will always protect the golden boy.
Captain Amerinazi declared Cyclops "Public Enemy Number One" because he killed one man in the middle of a fight while he was possessed by 100% percent of the Phoenix Force. The same Captain Amerinazi gave Namor a slap in the wrist for killing thousands of civilians in a surprise attack while he was possed by 20% of the Phoenix Force.

Gotta love Steve.

I do. Very much. Thank you for your concern.

And you seem to be forgetting that it was Scott who tried to hide the presence of the Pheonix to begin with, it's his own bloody fault he got possessed by it. A presence with a history of maliciousness and who had, just recently, left Nova in a coma. But sure, be biased, put my favorite character down to pump up your own, it's fans like you that are the reason I refuse to subscribe to an X-Men title ever again.

[capandkirby]

the costumed heroes created the environment that allowed for Hydra rule during Secret Empire. the populace is used to not having any say and quickly falling behind whoever is able to hit the hardest. that's not because of Kang the Conqueror or the Masters of Evil.

LOL, I want to bring up something so hard right now, but real-world politics are not allowed on this board, so I wont. What I will say is that in the real-world some people fall behind those with fascist beliefs without superheroes existing and WITH people having a say about it and actually, sickenly, condoning it. It doesn't take superheroes to create a rise of fascism, the real-world does just fine on their own. Which, catch-22, is exactly why superheroes were created, to fight fascism while normal mortal men were giving in to it.

[responsarbre]

Um, it's actually been brought up in the current Avengers book. As in that Steve had to remind Ross that the Avengers are not an American organization. And that they serve the world. And it was brought up in Avengers Dissembled (2000's) when the Avengers lost the status and then regained it following the Dark Reign. Moreover Christopher Priest put in his Captain America and the Falcon run that Steve had defacto leadership (command and access to resources) of the US military because of his position.

I don't claim to be an expert on the details of Avengers continuity, but that charter you quoted only came into effect after Larry Hama's Avengers #329: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/GK5-puOOl5...04tz-Mhr=s1600

Basically, the Avengers had just lost their charter with the US government and now they were operating under UN authority. Black Widow later dissolved the charter during Bloodties because it tied the Avengers hands during the civil war in Genosha and prevented them from intervening. I think that was the only major time besides Disassembled where the idea of the Avengers being sanctioned under a particular authority was an important enough plot point for the writers to really flesh out what that meant. I thought that the charter they were operating under by the time of Disassembled was under US authority but I could be wrong? I also don't think it's something that really stays consistent.

Also, again, if we're asking whether or not superheroes are fascist, I don't think the fact that ubermensch Steve Rogers is a defacto leader of the entire military just because he's a superhero helps show that he isn't fascist-y.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

the costumed heroes created the environment that allowed for Hydra rule during Secret Empire. the populace is used to not having any say and quickly falling behind whoever is able to hit the hardest. that's not because of Kang the Conqueror or the Masters of Evil.

Hydra pre-existed the Avengers. Red Skull existed before Captain America. You can argue that Batman's reckless and selfish approach to crime is creating villains and making stuff worse than better (especially since his greatest villain Joker is a product of collateral damage and unintended consequences when he foiled one botched robbery). But in Marvel, most of the villains exist before or parallel to and independent of the hero. With and without Spider-Man, Norman Osborn would have been the Green Goblin, Otto would have become Dr. Octopus and that applies to most of them. Without Cap, you would still have Red Skull, Zemo, Masters of Evil and the Secret Empire.

That villains in some recent schemes appropriate and hijack and use heroic institutions to undermine them is well it's tragic but that doesn't make it their fault. It happens all the time in real life and other places.

Also, again, if we're asking whether or not superheroes are fascist, I don't think the fact that ubermensch Steve Rogers is a defacto leader of the entire military just because he's a superhero helps show that he isn't fascist-y.

8cd48ef7a9dc4efead6b3b10093960fa.jpg

[capandkirby]

I don't claim to be an expert on the details of Avengers continuity, but that charter you quoted only came into effect after Larry Hama's Avengers #329: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/GK5-puOOl5...04tz-Mhr=s1600

Basically, the Avengers had just lost their charter with the US government and now they were operating under UN authority. Black Widow later dissolved the charter during Bloodties because it tied the Avengers hands during the civil war in Genosha and prevented them from intervening. I think that was the only major time besides Disassembled where the idea of the Avengers being sanctioned under a particular authority was an important enough plot point for the writers to really flesh out what that meant. I thought that the charter they were operating under by the time of Disassembled was under US authority but I could be wrong? I also don't think it's something that really stays consistent.

Also, again, if we're asking whether or not superheroes are fascist, I don't think the fact that ubermensch Steve Rogers is a defacto leader of the entire military just because he's a superhero helps show that he isn't fascist-y.

*Iron Man showing up drunk (not by his own volition, not jumping on Iron Man, here) to a UN meeting during Avengers Disassembled was why they lost their non-state actor status. So to lose it, means that it had been reinstated.

UnitedNations.JPG
UnitedNations2.jpg

*Steve was given the status as a non-state actor meant to deal with the specific arrangements the charter suggested: super villains, super villainy, magic, paranormal, alien, etc. He never abused the power, nor was his power absolute. It was the "equivalent of a one star General". Exact words. And again, for Steve to have this power, means it was reinstated. Priests run ran congruent to Avengers Dissembled.

Priest.JPG

*A "major time" is right now in the comics. Because the Avengers status as a non-state actor Ross has mobilized his own Squadron Supreme, the Russians have made a team of their own, and Namor has the Defenders. The ONLY team functioning on behalf of the entire world right now and not one countries singular interests are the Avengers.

[Zero Hunter]

the costumed heroes created the environment that allowed for Hydra rule during Secret Empire. the populace is used to not having any say and quickly falling behind whoever is able to hit the hardest. that's not because of Kang the Conqueror or the Masters of Evil.

No it was bad writing created that whole situation not the characters themselves.

[Agent Z]

Hydra pre-existed the Avengers. Red Skull existed before Captain America. You can argue that Batman's reckless and selfish approach to crime is creating villains and making stuff worse than better (especially since his greatest villain Joker is a product of collateral damage and unintended consequences when he foiled one botched robbery). But in Marvel, most of the villains exist before or parallel to and independent of the hero. With and without Spider-Man, Norman Osborn would have been the Green Goblin, Otto would have become Dr. Octopus and that applies to most of them. Without Cap, you would still have Red Skull, Zemo, Masters of Evil and the Secret Empire.

That villains in some recent schemes appropriate and hijack and use heroic institutions to undermine them is well it's tragic but that doesn't make it their fault. It happens all the time in real life and other places.



8cd48ef7a9dc4efead6b3b10093960fa.jpg

Not the strongest rebuttal. What Steve says he is and how the narrative treats him are two different things.