Can Captain America even admit that even HE has a dark side/flaw to him ?

[XPac]

We just disagree on this. To me that is hypocrisy. He didn't like stuff hidden behind his back, but he joins the group and keeps secret from other people behind their back.

If the ONLY think the Illuminati did was stay hidden, Steve probably wouldn't have a huge problem with them. The problem is that they did a lot of questionable things behind everyone back. That was the REAL issue. I think the difference in our opinion lies in you only looking at that single aspect of them staying secret and not at the other things they've done. Hding from everyone is frankly the tip of the ice berg. Starting a war with the skrulls which led to Secret Invasion, exiling Hulk into space which led to World War Hulk, and brigning the Infinity gems to earth which allowed Hood to collect them was the bigger issue.

But yes, Steve did decide to keep them guarding the gems a secret. Stark faked the gems destruction, so people would think they were gone. That meant that they couldn't advertise the fact that they had the gems. They kept it a secret, something Steve apparently agreed with.

It's not until they decide to blow up planets that Steve ends up on the outs with them again. Steve is tactically flexible... just not morally flexible. He'll adopt another persons strategy if it make sense to do so... but not to the degree that he would compromise his ethics. That's where he becomes "stubborn."

[Tony Stark]

If the ONLY think the Illuminati did was stay hidden, Steve probably wouldn't have a huge problem with them. The problem is that they did a lot of questionable things behind everyone back. That was the REAL issue. I think the difference in our opinion lies in you only looking at that single aspect of them staying secret and not at the other things they've done. Hding from everyone is frankly the tip of the ice berg. Starting a war with the skrulls which led to Secret Invasion, exiling Hulk into space which led to World War Hulk, and brigning the Infinity gems to earth which allowed Hood to collect them was the bigger issue.

But yes, Steve did decide to keep them guarding the gems a secret. Stark faked the gems destruction, so people would think they were gone. That meant that they couldn't advertise the fact that they had the gems. They kept it a secret, something Steve apparently agreed with.

It's not until they decide to blow up planets that Steve ends up on the outs with them again. Steve is tactically flexible... just not morally flexible. He'll adopt another persons strategy if it make sense to do so... but not to the degree that he would compromise his ethics. That's where he becomes "stubborn."

I'm seeing the big picture. I'm just calling it how I see it. Cap joined them despite what they did before. Again you won't see Cap as a hypocrite in that situation and I do. That's why I say we agree to disagree.

[Coin Biter]

You realize you also just described DC's favoritism with Batman, but I can't see how it's worse than stuff like Tower of Babel, the Injustice series or Batman: Endgame.

The basic difference (at least for the purposes of this discussion) between Batman and Captain America is that one is treated as the Pinnacle of Human Achievement, and the other the Pinnacle of Human Virtue.

Batman doesn’t always have to be right, but he always has to be Awesome, to an extent which can overshadow other characters. Captain America can be involved in an event where there are arguments on both sides, but where he is, the story steps in to endorse his choices - so Civil War culminates with the pro-reg side creating evil Thor clones, a gulag in the Negative Zone, and working with freakin’ serial killers, like Bullseye.

Both narrative choices are a bit annoying to non Cap or non Batman fans This is why it’s best to keep Cap away from hero vs hero conflicts, to sideline him as was very elegantly done with Cap in House of M. And, to an extent, with Civil War 2, where Hydra Cap crept villainously around the edges of the storyline.

That’s difficult to do with Batman, of course, because he outsells everyone else, but no reason why it can’t be done with Rogers.

[Coin Biter]

Now, obviously, the reason why Cap tends to be privileged by the narrative is because of his connection with WWII.

This didn’t I guess use to work in quite the way it does now. When he reappeared in 1964, it’s worth bearing in mind that it had only been 19 years since the end of WWII, which is less time than has expired since the first Iraq War. Hell, even in ‘80, it was another 16 years, which is a similar time period to that which has elapsed since the start of the Reagan administration.

Now, the War is beginning to recede in living memory, but if anything looms even larger in the consciousness the further it recedes. Cap is still fighting against actual or allegorical Nazis, and with the amount of WWII flashbacks he’s had, you would think that the US involvement against the Axis powers had lasted longer than the Hundred Years War. Cap has to be right more than ever... because he punched Hitler on the cover of Captain America Comics #1. Other heroes from that period don’t have so much of this, even Wonder Woman, despite her storylines in the Pacific theatre.

This is why there was such an absurd reaction from some to the Hydra Cap storyline in the first place, and why Captain America, the icon, IMO actually works slightly better as a legacy character, where the yoke of expectations can sit awkwardly on the shoulders of an individual who is not always obliged to live up to them. Rogers is better off when he throws aside the mantle, as he periodically has over the last 30 or so years.

[Jabare]

[jackolover]

I like the idea of Secret Empire, but I didn't enjoy how it ended with two Captain Americas/Steve Rogers in the world. I wanted it to end with one Steve Rogers restored and struggling with the idea of him having a far off dark side and maybe seeing the likes of how Tony Stark and Scott Summers dealt with their darker impulses in them and getting to the point of understanding them better as heroes and as people.

I mean also a major flaw of Captain America is his stubbornness and his unwillingness to admit when he was wrong only to see it when the destruction gets to much via Civil War 1...Time Runs out was just sad. His flaw of seeing things through even though it would ruin him in the process.

As fans of Captain America: What do you think of this ?

You do have a point of view to Caps structure. Maybe he is a man out of time.

But I see Steve Rogers as someone who is confident in his staunch attitude to conservatism. To break him, as you suggest, takes away that confidence he needs to be himself; to be the man everyone will follow when he leads. I don’t think Steve lost in Civil War. He was right in the fact you can’t negotiate the free vigilante tradition out of existence. The world needed them. Iron Man was right too, because as stubborn as Rogers was for his tradition, there needed to be a stop to that for a while till people cooled down. I still see Captain America as existing in Civil War, but he had to be cut down for the 50 State Initiative to emerge and salve the publics rage.

Removing Steves confidence in his own capacity to be ethical, by making Steve own his Secret Empire persona, destroys Steve Rogers.

[jackolover]

Now, obviously, the reason why Cap tends to be privileged by the narrative is because of his connection with WWII.

This didn’t I guess use to work in quite the way it does now. When he reappeared in 1964, it’s worth bearing in mind that it had only been 19 years since the end of WWII, which is less time than has expired since the first Iraq War. Hell, even in ‘80, it was another 16 years, which is a similar time period to that which has elapsed since the start of the Reagan administration.

Now, the War is beginning to recede in living memory, but if anything looms even larger in the consciousness the further it recedes. Cap is still fighting against actual or allegorical Nazis, and with the amount of WWII flashbacks he’s had, you would think that the US involvement against the Axis powers had lasted longer than the Hundred Years War. Cap has to be right more than ever... because he punched Hitler on the cover of Captain America Comics #1. Other heroes from that period don’t have so much of this, even Wonder Woman, despite her storylines in the Pacific theatre.

This is why there was such an absurd reaction from some to the Hydra Cap storyline in the first place, and why Captain America, the icon, IMO actually works slightly better as a legacy character, where the yoke of expectations can sit awkwardly on the shoulders of an individual who is not always obliged to live up to them. Rogers is better off when he throws aside the mantle, as he periodically has over the last 30 or so years.

Your mention of Steve Rogers reappearing in 1964, reminds me of Mark Waids current story of Steve landing in the future world. We have a time jump from 2018 to 2080. 60 years.

Back then in 1964, Steve would have had a similar strain to cope with the sudden end of WWII, but instead of his fathers America reappearing, he had this post-Kennedy era, where the American Dream was never realised. It must have been very deflating that racial, gender, and inequality issues festered after the war, instead of the Utopia America was supposed to turn into. Nick Fury foisted equality in his Howlers with Jewish and African Americans in his team. When these men got home, they had to go through returning to the 1930’s again; seeing their citizens stagnated in positions of intransigence. The war broke down many barriers as to who you respect and depend on. Culture stands on all that respect.

I think the message Steve Rogers got from 1964 was that you can fight for your freedom, but you aren’t necessarily going to change how your neighbour thinks.

[Tony Stark]

I like the idea of Secret Empire, but I didn't enjoy how it ended with two Captain Americas/Steve Rogers in the world. I wanted it to end with one Steve Rogers restored and struggling with the idea of him having a far off dark side and maybe seeing the likes of how Tony Stark and Scott Summers dealt with their darker impulses in them and getting to the point of understanding them better as heroes and as people.

I mean also a major flaw of Captain America is his stubbornness and his unwillingness to admit when he was wrong only to see it when the destruction gets to much via Civil War 1...Time Runs out was just sad. His flaw of seeing things through even though it would ruin him in the process.

As fans of Captain America: What do you think of this ?

All good points here. I do think Cap has a hard time with stubbornness and admitting he is wrong.

[MichaelC]

All good points here. I do think Cap has a hard time with stubbornness and admitting he is wrong.

Except it wasn't framed as this. It was framed as the people failing him and sinning against him, and him having to surrender to avoid hurting them for their sins.

[Stormultt Divine]

I think, generally, he CAN. He's often admitted when he isn't the guy for the job. However, Secret Wars painted Steve in a really poor and petty light, so I can't say for certain that he ever WILL. However, given Coates' pitch for his Captain America run, it is likely something that Steve may give some thought to soon.

Agreed.

The writing for him in SW did nothing for me, he gave me stubborn and hardheaded but I guess it'll make for an interesting character path with Coates writing him.

[Cmbmool]

Given what is currently happening in Captain America: Does the world really needs Steve Rogers as Captain America anymore ? I mean it’s stated in the comic of how each time he takes up the mantel of Captain America there’s always something that causes him to go into rebellion against others.

[MajorHoy]

Given what is currently happening in Captain America: Does the world really needs Steve Rogers as Captain America anymore?

Do you have to go and revive all the dormant anti-Cap threads?

And from "Does the world really need Captain America in Marvel legacy ?" (which had last been active until you made the following posts there today):

"Did Marvel really need Daredevil after what he did in Shadowlands?" "Can people ever truly trust Spider-man after Doc Ock took over his body?"

Those are questions that should be addressed to the public...

followed by

Given what is currently happening in Captain America: Does the world really needs Steve Rogers as Captain America anymore ? I mean it’s stated in the comic of how each time he takes up the mantel of Captain America there’s always something that causes him to go into rebellion against others.

And, yes, the Marvel Universe NEEDS Captain America.

[capandkirby]

Yes, the world needs Captain America. Point-blank, period. That’s my answer today, it’s my answer tomorrow, and it was my answer 30 years ago when I started reading the Cap comics. You got a problem with that? I can’t help but think you have an agenda here because you’ve brought up two dead threads with the same message.

You don’t like Cap? That’s your right. But some of us, in fact MANY of us, because of the Cap comics continue to sell well, do. And this may be a surprise to you, but the world does not revolve around your opinion of characters. Cap will always be relevant. This passive-aggressive attempt of yours to question his validity is petty and immature.

[tliscord]

Given what is currently happening in Captain America: Does the world really needs Steve Rogers as Captain America anymore ? I mean it’s stated in the comic of how each time he takes up the mantel of Captain America there’s always something that causes him to go into rebellion against others.

I’m ok with this question. Many writers from Lee and Englehart through Greunwald to Waid and Brubaker to one degree or another have asked. Of course the answer has always been a yes but it is the process of asking that question that makes for some of the best Cap stories.

Personally I loved the Secret Avengers arc having him out of uniform playing black ops. His role, as well as Sharon’s and the great supporting cast had me at least hoping for a longer run. That’s a first. Neither Nomad or the Captain got me as excited. But there the circumstances were different.

As to his moral resistance, his burden seems to be cherishing these enlightenment ideals that oft come to a head with the reality of an imperfect republic as was so well laid out during Englehart’s Secret Empire.

[tliscord]

You do have a point of view to Caps structure. Maybe he is a man out of time.

But I see Steve Rogers as someone who is confident in his staunch attitude to conservatism. To break him, as you suggest, takes away that confidence he needs to be himself; to be the man everyone will follow when he leads. I don’t think Steve lost in Civil War. He was right in the fact you can’t negotiate the free vigilante tradition out of existence. The world needed them. Iron Man was right too, because as stubborn as Rogers was for his tradition, there needed to be a stop to that for a while till people cooled down. I still see Captain America as existing in Civil War, but he had to be cut down for the 50 State Initiative to emerge and salve the publics rage.

Removing Steves confidence in his own capacity to be ethical, by making Steve own his Secret Empire persona, destroys Steve Rogers.

See, I think that’s what makes for good Cap stories. Spencer was another variation of that theme, I would argue perhaps not done as well as other writers. To be so completely evil and thinking it was the morally right view was pretty unsettling for me. It’s the classic tear him down to rise again story Remender was quoted to be his approach to the Dimension Z/ Iron Nail arc. The finest example of rocking him to his core were the final panels of Cap 11 during the Winter Soldier arc .... just something about Epting there.
A404F6F0-92DC-4A87-A5AF-53F617FB3679.jpg
Cracks me up people thinking he’s too one dimensional.