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  1. #1
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    Default DC Resetting Timelines and Revamping Series Again

    As one would guess in this day and age, and I'm gonna say it straight because I highly believe this truly. DC Comics is failing as a company. They're literally pulling at strings. Now, I love the Omnibus program and some of the new stuff they got going. It's neat. But before the New 52, I believe they had direction. However, I know I bring up Alan Moore in everything a mention. It's like a reoccurring theme that always happens. I believe the best series DC ever had in its entire existence of being a company was literally Watchmen. There's a reason for that. It was their most selling series in all of history. The first real series to break boundaries and be for the adults and show realism within a comic. It did everything comics try to emulate today. Alan Moore knew what he was doing when he did it. But he wasn't a smart businessman at all and screwed himself of every single dollar he could've possibly made. Now, I for one, love Alan Moore to death. However, no one screwed himself but himself. It's like the best comparison I can put to this is like Bret Hart screwing Bret Hart. He knew Vince wouldn't let him win the title, so Vince takes it away. Why in the hell would Vince allow Bret to take the WWF belt to WCW, or, even go over on Shawn Michaels when Bret was going to his competition. Bret couldn't have thought in his head that was right. All he cared for was a bigger pay day, or making money at the end of the day. Alan Moore is no different than Bret Hart.

    Alan Moore bitches and complains and says woe is me and all kinds of dumb crap. But no one held a gun to his head and said "Sign your series over or I'll kill you". I'll say this it does make me sick, that after some odd years the sob doesn't get over the fact that he literally f'ed up. DC didn't force him into anything. He did that cause he wanted a payday. On top of that, Dave Gibbons didn't even care and he was the artist. Gibbons was pretty damn happy people respected his work and still showed appreciation towards it all. And to this day, Watchmen is still the biggest selling book in all of comics. Alan Moore as a man, could've contested or at least come to terms with DC about it. Then make amends and try to repair whatever fractured feeling they had for one another. But he's a man who's too damn proud. I remember speaking to Alan Davis about Captain Britain and he used to tell me Alan Moore was quite the prick. When I asked about Miracleman, he said the same thing. Alan Moore wanted full control over everything he did. He didn't want anyone to control him. But he forgot that he's writing series for comic companies, series although he revamped them and made them better. They were never his to begin with. I still find it sickening that after almost 2 decades and a half, on Marvel's reprints of the Miracleman material, Moore didn't want his name on it. It's like, you're the comic company, why in the hell do you need to ask him for his permission to put his name when you finally own it all now? It's also sickening that they expanded that into 3 books full of supplemental garbage that didn't matter, when all people wanted was a story to read. Plus Variant covers of the damn book like if it's a rare commodity, when at the time no one honestly cared about it anymore to begin with. As much as I love Miracleman, it's too old and too outdated to matter anymore today. All those themes within it are already used up to the point there's nothing new anymore or original.

    Alan Moore is the originator and his old works are still better than most of the heaps of crap being published today. And even more so now. Because Doomsday Clock is literally, Watchmen breaking through into the DCU. Not only that, but also a resetting of the imprint as well for the 3rd time. In all honesty, comics are dying. No one wants to admit this. But the cold hard truth is the markets going under more and more. Brick and Mortar shops are closing down more than ever. My close friend is literally selling his shop. My other friend is barely making money anymore. The real sales come from the movies, everyone knows this. Marvel kills its characters, just to bring them back revamped and redone. How many times can you retcon something so much that it falls apart. I remember when I translated Kinnikuman by Yudetamago, they'd retcon so much stuff, and their plot-devices would fall apart. Cause they couldn't keep the story going, it was falling apart, no matter how much Yude tried, and as much as it was fun and great to read. The series was literally on the verge of being entirely retconned and flipped upside down. But saved it they did and Kinnikuman's been going strong for almost 40 years. Alan Moore never realized how important Watchmen really was at the time and how much that series would impact a label to the core. So much so that Geoff Johns final story being told is through Watchmen characters. This feels literally like a revamp of Watchmen in the Zero Hour storyline, and instead of Hal Jordan, we get Dr. Manhattan in his place. How many times must DC do this and kill whatever credibility they have left as a comic company. Most of all of the Rebirth series are all dying off and everything's going nowhere.

    It's like all of the guys who spent time doing the New 52 stuff was just done to be done. It didn't make a difference cause no one cares really. Rebirth is no different. It's another moment where so many creators wasted time just to get a paycheck but their efforts in the end meant nothing cause it's all resetting regardless. With that said, I honestly feel that Alan Moore has quite possibly doomed DC Comics as a company. Cause neither them, nor he can get over that series so much that it's destroying them both. Moore created Providence and that series is just godawful. He said it was the new age Watchmen, man, give me a break. Moore's career died when he stopped doing hero and vigilante stuff. I'm all about a human beings evolution and a writer getting even better in time. But unfortunately for him, it just made him more awful in time and single-handedly destroyed an entire comic company. How many times will DC keep resetting its imprint until people just stop caring. Marvel does the same exact model as well and they're doing even worse. If it wasn't for certain writers and artists who were well known doing series that made sense for them to do and save whatever dignity those 2 companies had left, they would've sunken under. This reminds me heavily about Top Cow, to me besides Sejic and Hawkins being the most active people on there. Top Cow's like a dying company. Witchblade gets cancelled, then brought back and re-imagined, which is a joke cause Ron Marz was the Top-Cow architect and everyone knows this. Darkness, I heard, but this could also be a rumor, that DC had purchased that character from Top Cow. I can't find anywhere that mentions that, but a lot of people at the comic shops keep mentioning it. And I can't help but feel "The Darkness" coming to DC could in fact actually be Jacky Estacado. If that did happen my head would explode being how Estacado is one of my all time favorite characters ever made. But it would make sense if it were actually Doomsday himself, but that would've give away too much. But if Superman's symbol is in the clock, why wouldn't it be Doomsday? We'll have to see.

    I honestly feel the comic industry will eventually fold and be no more. Most of the time series get cancelled more often than you'd think. Hardly anything gets hardcover releases anymore that's worth collecting besides the HC editions we already know about. More and more creators are getting shafted, while creators keep working for that paycheck. I will say I love Geoff Johns and all of his work, I'd easily say, as of right now, he's one of the comic greats. I never read a story or series by him that I didn't enjoy. The guys a beast. His Justice League was phenomenal, it was quite possibly the greatest run of that entire series history. People argue this fact and trash him, a lot of people hate him. But he made 2 of my most loved characters Flash and Green Lantern relevant when no one wanted to touch them. His Batman Year One is also spectacular and I hope he does a third volume to it. Doomsday Clock is also great, because Johns can tell a damn good story. The way he's wired to tell a story is beyond most people today. But the idea of restarting the DCU all over again bothers me because it's going to mean everything everyone wrote was entirely useless and meant nothing. The fact that Bendis is being here will make it better or worse, I personally think his creator owned stuff sucks. His Daredevil, Avengers, X-Men and a few others were super nice. But Bendis has his moments. Hopefully being with DC he can bring back a style he once forgot, and make DC a better company to buy comics from, as well as bring a few Marvel guys in with him. I hate change when a company's already doing it right. But if the change is so drastic that it makes the company better, I'm all for it.

  2. #2
    Mighty Member Dark-Flux's Avatar
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    A lot to unpack from that, but I'm gonna leave it with;

    1. I disagree with almost everything. I wouldn't say DC is failing given that there market share is the highest its been in over 10 years.
    2. Providence was great.
    3. DC hasnt bought the Darkness, a new book has been announced by Top Cow for October. Your comic shop guys should learn their shit.
    4. Comic sales revenue is currently the highest its been since the mid-90's. And thats just the direct market. Not even taking into account the advent of bookstore and digital sales.
    Last edited by Dark-Flux; 04-20-2018 at 01:06 AM.
    Currently Reading:
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  3. #3
    I am the law Judge Dredd's Avatar
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    Sounds like you are just upset over them building on Moore's material and projecting that into DC is failing because you do not like the current direction. As pointed out by Dark-Flux they have been doing good with market share and also have the digital sales that sadly do not get released so hard to say how much of an affect they have had.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Captain Craig's Avatar
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    Wall of text = skip
    I don't have time for that drama.
    "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark-Flux View Post
    A lot to unpack from that, but I'm gonna leave it with;

    1. I disagree with almost everything. I wouldn't say DC is failing given that there market share is the highest its been in over 10 years.
    2. Providence was great.
    3. DC hasnt bought the Darkness, a new book has been announced by Top Cow for October. Your comic shop guys should learn their shit.
    4. Comic sales revenue is currently the highest its been since the mid-90's. And thats just the direct market. Not even taking into account the advent of bookstore and digital sales.
    Comic sales (in both $$ and units) have actually been trending downwards the last couple years. 2015 seems to have been the high water mark post 2000s. No idea how digital factors in to those figures though. DC certainly has a better grip than in past years, however the market as a whole seems to fair better when Marvel has strong offerings

    http://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html

  6. #6
    Spectacular Member doolittle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark-Flux View Post
    1. I disagree with almost everything. I wouldn't say DC is failing given that there market share is the highest its been in over 10 years.
    Yep, this is where I stopped reading. DC is doing great.

  7. #7
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    Yeah, obviously you didn't get what I said. Brick and Mortar shops are failing, comic book sales are dwindling and no one gives a damn anymore. Besides the few who still care. Which is much lesser than you think. The digital age destroyed the physical age. In my state one of my close friends owns one of the largest comic shops in the entire southern area. He's lost more money to online business than he's made in years. He's selling his massive shop, which I might add is literally the size of a Wal-Mart full of comics, art, and everything you can imagine and is 2 stories for 1.5 million. Cause in the last 7 years, and since his father died recently, he's lost millions. That shop along with his other shops have to be at least 10 million+ in comics and such. That's saying a lot.

    The only reason DC is doing great is cause they cater to little kids and reset the universe every 3-4 years. Just so more kids will jump on the bandwagon, while the old-school fans, only buy older material and stick to what they loved growing up. Just because there's a couple of smart-asses on a forum who want to put in their two-cents, acting like they understood what I said, which they didn't is ridiculous. DC is doing great for the fact that they're releasing Omnibuses to compete with Marvel, cause that's the only thing people buy nowadays. Thus the only thing keeping them alive. Since their older work is better than their newer work. That's unless you're dirt poor and can only afford trades. Even Cullen Bunn himself said F DC cause they're catering to kids, instead of creators. Which is and isn't true. It's true they cater to kids now more than ever. But it's also true they still have some sense of quality story-wise, not printing. They're getting better though. It's just over-shadowed by them cancelling series that were great just to restart the damn company.

    As far as Marvel goes, besides Masterworks, OHC's, Omnibuses and the like. And maybe 3-5 new series, which is really pushing it. Most of their current on-goings are almost entirely garbage. I'd say DC is a hell of a lot stronger with on-goings. Suicide Squad is pretty great, and I enjoy it so far. Dark Knights Metal is also great. Justice League Voltron was the shit. They keep it fun, Kamandi Challenge was phenomenal. Marvel has hmm, Thanos, Old Man Logan, Daredevil, (Karnak by Ellis, which was great but fell to pieces.), and whatever Jim Starlin has left to be published by them. Everything else that's new is an afterthought. I love Mark Waid a lot, but I haven't checked out his Avengers or his Cap recently. I intend to sometime this week. But from some stuff people suggested to me so far, man I read a few volumes of new stuff and ended up throwing them in the garbage, cause that's exactly what they were.

    Spider-Gwen, Gwenpool, Gwenom, there's so many awful things wrong with that series. The art sucks, the writing is mediocre, it's atrocious. It's like I love Rick Remender a lot as well, he's one of my favorite writers and a cool dude to talk to. But his Deadpool/Venom story was godawful. I own a few copies, actually. Thanks Rick. But the story, it was so sub-par. It was like I dunno, I can't explain how bad and unmemorable that was. Uncanny X-Force was impeccable, I'd say one of the greatest series in Marvel's start of 2010's decade. It's so great, you read it once and you'll never forget it. Flawlessly written, and his Deadpool had some really defining moments within it, plus using characters no one cared to use. It was great. I suggest that series to everyone who's getting into comics. Cause it's the perfect self-contained comic to get into. But that Deadpool/Venom One-Shot was a joke. He could've done better.

  8. #8
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    Businesses go through ebbs and flows. Just like creativity goes through ebbs and flows. Not every writer is going to produce 100% output 100% of the time.

    Now Marvel is suffering from the previous regime who treated their customers and artists with disrespect. Marvel is on a "brain drain" of their best talents due to this. DC has realized their most precious resource is their artists and not their characters. So they are figuring out ways they can keep their top talent happy now and it's paying off as DC has had the most consistant quality compared to Marvel.

    But it doesn't matter what they do now. Comics were huge back in the day because there wasn't as much media or entertainment consuming people's time. Now you have Social Media, blockbusters left and right, huge video games constantly coming out, much more good tv to consume than their ever has been. It's not just digital taking sales, it's a conglomerate of entertainment that comics have to compete for people's time and money with, and unfortunately comics never really gained an audience from the recent movie and tv surge.

    If movies and tv could not bring a resurgence to the graphic novel medium, nothing will and companies will have to adopt to a smaller shrinking market or just end up going bankrupt. That is the reality of it.

  9. #9
    Mighty Member Dark-Flux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katatonia View Post
    Yeah, obviously you didn't get what I said. Brick and Mortar shops are failing, comic book sales are dwindling and no one gives a damn anymore. Besides the few who still care. Which is much lesser than you think. The digital age destroyed the physical age. In my state one of my close friends owns one of the largest comic shops in the entire southern area. He's lost more money to online business than he's made in years. He's selling his massive shop, which I might add is literally the size of a Wal-Mart full of comics, art, and everything you can imagine and is 2 stories for 1.5 million. Cause in the last 7 years, and since his father died recently, he's lost millions. That shop along with his other shops have to be at least 10 million+ in comics and such. That's saying a lot.

    The only reason DC is doing great is cause they cater to little kids and reset the universe every 3-4 years. Just so more kids will jump on the bandwagon, while the old-school fans, only buy older material and stick to what they loved growing up. Just because there's a couple of smart-asses on a forum who want to put in their two-cents, acting like they understood what I said, which they didn't is ridiculous. DC is doing great for the fact that they're releasing Omnibuses to compete with Marvel, cause that's the only thing people buy nowadays. Thus the only thing keeping them alive. Since their older work is better than their newer work. That's unless you're dirt poor and can only afford trades. Even Cullen Bunn himself said F DC cause they're catering to kids, instead of creators. Which is and isn't true. It's true they cater to kids now more than ever. But it's also true they still have some sense of quality story-wise, not printing. They're getting better though. It's just over-shadowed by them cancelling series that were great just to restart the damn company.

    As far as Marvel goes, besides Masterworks, OHC's, Omnibuses and the like. And maybe 3-5 new series, which is really pushing it. Most of their current on-goings are almost entirely garbage. I'd say DC is a hell of a lot stronger with on-goings. Suicide Squad is pretty great, and I enjoy it so far. Dark Knights Metal is also great. Justice League Voltron was the shit. They keep it fun, Kamandi Challenge was phenomenal. Marvel has hmm, Thanos, Old Man Logan, Daredevil, (Karnak by Ellis, which was great but fell to pieces.), and whatever Jim Starlin has left to be published by them. Everything else that's new is an afterthought. I love Mark Waid a lot, but I haven't checked out his Avengers or his Cap recently. I intend to sometime this week. But from some stuff people suggested to me so far, man I read a few volumes of new stuff and ended up throwing them in the garbage, cause that's exactly what they were.

    Spider-Gwen, Gwenpool, Gwenom, there's so many awful things wrong with that series. The art sucks, the writing is mediocre, it's atrocious. It's like I love Rick Remender a lot as well, he's one of my favorite writers and a cool dude to talk to. But his Deadpool/Venom story was godawful. I own a few copies, actually. Thanks Rick. But the story, it was so sub-par. It was like I dunno, I can't explain how bad and unmemorable that was. Uncanny X-Force was impeccable, I'd say one of the greatest series in Marvel's start of 2010's decade. It's so great, you read it once and you'll never forget it. Flawlessly written, and his Deadpool had some really defining moments within it, plus using characters no one cared to use. It was great. I suggest that series to everyone who's getting into comics. Cause it's the perfect self-contained comic to get into. But that Deadpool/Venom One-Shot was a joke. He could've done better.
    All of this is anecdotal evidence, conjecture and personal opinions on your part and none of it is reflected in the actual sales data or market share figures.

    Just because you dont like a book doesnt mean others dont or that its not selling.
    Just cos your local shop closes doesnt mean the comic industry as a whole is suffering overall.
    Diamonds releases separate sales figures for monthly issues and collected editions, so you saying DC is only surviving off of omnibus sales is catagorically false.
    And theres no right or wrong way to stay in buisiness. DC are doing better than they have in years. It doesnt "not count" because they are starting to put out more books aimed at a younger audience.
    Currently Reading:
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  10. #10
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    Punjabi: I total agree with you 100%. That's exactly how I feel about everything in this era now.

  11. #11
    VEGETATIVE INJUSTICE! Kurisu's Avatar
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  12. #12
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katatonia View Post
    Yeah, obviously you didn't get what I said. Brick and Mortar shops are failing, comic book sales are dwindling and no one gives a damn anymore. Besides the few who still care. Which is much lesser than you think. The digital age destroyed the physical age. In my state one of my close friends owns one of the largest comic shops in the entire southern area. He's lost more money to online business than he's made in years. He's selling his massive shop, which I might add is literally the size of a Wal-Mart full of comics, art, and everything you can imagine and is 2 stories for 1.5 million. Cause in the last 7 years, and since his father died recently, he's lost millions. That shop along with his other shops have to be at least 10 million+ in comics and such. That's saying a lot.
    What it says is that times change and peoples tastes change. "Digital" is the direction many people seem to be hooked into. People like me may not like that, but unfortunately, companies aren't likely to get rich trying to cater specifically to my tastes.
    Another thing to keep in mind: people keep harping on the idea of "dwindling sales", but that's based on what exactly: orders that comic book shops place for physical copies of comic books through Diamond? That doesn't necessarily mean ALL sales have dropped; just that part of the business is drying up, and if it's that orders through Diamond are reduced, that could also mean comic book shops are being more careful about how many non-returnable copies they order for some books.

  13. #13
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    People have been screaming that comics were dying long before I made my first post at these forums 22 years ago, but guess what? Comics are still being published to this very day.

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  14. #14
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    You know what the biggest detriment to the comic book industry is?

    ***********The price.*************

    I have tremendous purchasing power, (and trust me, every time my wife sees a crate of old books show up in the mail I get reamed) But the proverbial kid down the street.. when you're dropping $3.99-$4.99+ etc PER BOOK... That takes a lot of flexibility out of their hands. They need to get their volume up and their cost down, while maintaining (or improving) the quality of their product.. (IE.. like NEVER hiring disastrously terrible artists like Kelly Jones on a major book ever again..(hello 90's batman)

  15. #15
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    I'm in the same boat. I buy a lot, and boxes always come in the mail. That's besides receiving international comics, and the Japanese manga I translate. Everything I work on translation wise, the publisher sends me the full series in their respective languages as well as in English once it's published. I should take a pic of how many boxes are actually stacked up. It's to the ceiling. And I haven't even opened any of them yet from the stuff I bought that is. I stopped buying floppies and trades years ago. Around the time Daniel Way was in the middle of his amazing Deadpool run. And yes, I love that run a lot, it was just as great as Joe Kelly's and that's saying a lot. And I agree with you 100%. Kelly Jones is a pretty shit artist, he makes Batman look like a retarded circus freak. I'd have preferred Simon Bisley over Kelly Jones on the Knight Trilogy. That would've made those books look even better. Speaking of which, it would be amazing if DC made a Lobo Omnibus. That's something I've been wanting for years. And a Demon Omnibus from Garth Ennis as well as a Hitman Omnibus. That series was incredible. I will say, I loved Gotham City Sirens a lot, and collected it when it first came out along with The Spirit: First Wave series. Man, that was some good stuff. I remember Catwoman's run was also great. I've always loved Catwoman as a character, she's always been like one of my all time favorite female leads growing up, since that Adam West show lol.

    Harley Quinn I like her a lot as long as the person can write it her good, Paul Dini is the master of writing her. Growing up I read a lot of Golden Age GL and I'm used to the one with Alan Scott more. It's like they rehashed the character and put her with the Joker. But I still love her run with Amanda Conner and Jimmy P. that was great stuff. Poison Ivy never really had a series to be honest, besides that mini by Amy Chu and it was super enjoyable. I hope they make another Siren's type Omnibus, but catalog all of the mini's and such from all three characters. Before Amanda Conner's run. Though, Quinn is an integral part of Suicide Squad and there's no real reason to collect any of that in a Siren's type book. I admit I loved every single series it's ever had. It's like the people who write her, know how to write her, even though Dini's still the man. Though, I wished Adam Glass did a little more work on his run. I enjoyed his past run a lot. The current run is great as well. But I got a problem with it. On the first OHC, or rather, the crossover book which was also great. They could've included all of the character one-shot's into it. Cause it all goes with the story. I feel by leaving them out, it kinda feels half-assed. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.

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