Fresh Start for DC ... Fresh Start for WW

[Lex Luthor]

That's true, she did but she did it in a way that I thought was a huge waste. While she brought back Mayfly(one of the least popular Wonder-rogues), most of the other villains in her story were brand new and seemed like copies of other Wonder-rogues that could have been used instead(i.e. Catseye/Cheetah). I also didn't like that she had Cheshire present Diana with the amount of difficulty that she did. Cheshire has no powers, special weapons, etc. Diana should have been able to take her out in less than 30 seconds. Cheshire is a great villain for Arsenal, Nightwing, or Batman but not Diana. While Fontana didn't take Diana in a bold, new direction, it was a very boring one IMO.

Yeah it was very boring and i'm sure I just peaced out by the very last issue and started back up when Robinson first came on. I thought she might have done something I didn't read or forgot about.

[regg215]

Diana has never benefited from being written by Johns. None of the Wonder Woman characters have. And it's odd to criticize Bennett for substituting her own wish fulfillment for a character's history when this is what Johns has been doing since his Green lantern run. Hell, two of the biggest sources of agony in the current run, Grail and Jason, are his brain children.

The most flattering thing I can say about Darkseid War is that Diana got so little focus that Johns couldn't butcher her like he did the previous times he wrote her.

I know that Johns has not typically done the best writing Diana but I do feel if he would take over the book, she would finally get the spotlight as the most important character for DC for a while. WW centric events and a building of the mythology like he did with GL could be great for Diana as opposed to the sort of bland stuff we are getting now. WW badly needs new villains and new ideas rather than continually recycling the same cheetah origin story and conflicts every few years and with the way he built long tern successful stuff like sinestro corps and red lanterns I feel like Johns could bring that sort of to WW. While she is not my favorite DC character (she's my 5th favorite) Diana more than deserves to be the center of the DC universe for a bit and I feel like Johns would be able to provide that spotlight for her. Not sure If Darkseid War was her best representation but I thought there was a solid characterization there and while Grail and Jason have been handled poorly (from what I have heard, I haven't picked any issues up) I blame that on robinson not the actual ideas themselves.

[SiegePerilous02]

Diana has never benefited from being written by Johns. None of the Wonder Woman characters have. And it's odd to criticize Bennett for substituting her own wish fulfillment for a character's history when this is what Johns has been doing since his Green lantern run. Hell, two of the biggest sources of agony in the current run, Grail and Jason, are his brain children.

The most flattering thing I can say about Darkseid War is that Diana got so little focus that Johns couldn't butcher her like he did the previous times he wrote her.

I feel like a lot of writers do that now TBH, so I'm not sure it's fair to criticize either of them for it. It's pretty much glorified fanfiction anyway, so it's better to hope for it being good.

I think you are dead on about Darkseid War though, but to be fair, he wrote her very well in AMAZO Virus with a little more to do, and co-wrote the script for her movie. Johns maybe have been able to implement the ideas surrounding Grail and Jason in a better manner than Robinson. I think editorially enforced ideas combined with Robinson's writing ended up being a deadly combination. Johns may have written all this stuff better, and Robinson, if not forced to write about it, may have produced better stories.

I know that Johns has not typically done the best writing Diana but I do feel if he would take over the book, she would finally get the spotlight as the most important character for DC for a while. WW centric events and a building of the mythology like he did with GL could be great for Diana as opposed to the sort of bland stuff we are getting now. WW badly needs new villains and new ideas rather than continually recycling the same cheetah origin story and conflicts every few years and with the way he built long tern successful stuff like sinestro corps and red lanterns I feel like Johns could bring that sort of to WW. While she is not my favorite DC character (she's my 5th favorite) Diana more than deserves to be the center of the DC universe for a bit and I feel like Johns would be able to provide that spotlight for her. Not sure If Darkseid War was her best representation but I thought there was a solid characterization there and while Grail and Jason have been handled poorly (from what I have heard, I haven't picked any issues up) I blame that on robinson not the actual ideas themselves.

I feel like Wonder Woman has the opposite problem as everyone else, in that the last thing she needs is new villains, but to put some attention on the countless ones she already has that never get any focus. A new Villainy Inc would pretty much be the same as featuring new villains; unlike Cheetah or Psycho, the members of that team only show up once every few decades, and in bit parts at that. It's not like Zara or Eviless have gotten the same play as Batman's major villains (or even lower tier ones).

[AmiMizuno]

One problem Diana has villains that haven't been used often either. So I don't mind her getting new villains the only problem looks how often we get a new villain and never see them again. I mean I really hope someone uses Zara, Blue Snowman, and Angelette again. Right now for Diana, she needs her own editor. She can't be going back and forth between Superman and Batman editors. I get it they are not going to do it for her but still. Someone should set rules. For example, her powers are too inconsistent. I mean do we really need to go in a different direction? Look at how Azz or many others have tired to take Diana in a new direction. She doesn't need a new origin. She needs a new direction yes but where? A few mains things need to stay but other than that how much should leave and stay is really up to the writer.

We really need some guidelines with Diana.

[Dr. Poison]

Diana has never benefited from being written by Johns. None of the Wonder Woman characters have. And it's odd to criticize Bennett for substituting her own wish fulfillment for a character's history when this is what Johns has been doing since his Green lantern run. Hell, two of the biggest sources of agony in the current run, Grail and Jason, are his brain children.

The most flattering thing I can say about Darkseid War is that Diana got so little focus that Johns couldn't butcher her like he did the previous times he wrote her.

Are you forgetting that Johns brought back both Steve Trevor and the Cheetah in the New 52 and elevated them both? Steve became a head A.R.G.U.S. operative and a liaison with the Justice League. Cheetah was shown to be powerful enough to give the entire League(sans the missing Hal Jordan) a run for their money in JL #13 and 14. While Johns' Wonder Woman has been overly aggressive at times, he's gotten a better handle on her as time as past as well.

[Agent Z]

Are you forgetting that Johns brought back both Steve Trevor and the Cheetah in the New 52 and elevated them both? Steve became a head A.R.G.U.S. operative and a liaison with the Justice League. Cheetah was shown to be powerful enough to give the entire League(sans the missing Hal Jordan) a run for their money in JL #13 and 14. While Johns' Wonder Woman has been overly aggressive at times, he's gotten a better handle on her as time as past as well.

I'll give you Cheetah though it's a bit of a stretch imo but Steve was defined as nothing more than Diana's ex who was bitter about her relationship with Clark.

[DragonPiece]

I just don't think Diana and Steve had their own relationship fleshed out enough to accommodate a kid. At least Clark and Lois were married for a long time. Steve was off the table as even a plausible love interest for the Wonder Woman for 25 years. Their entire dynamic has to be rebuilt. I don't think you put a kid into that scenario when they're not even close to firmly establishing it yet. Copying Superman here I think would be a bad move right now. I'd say they'd need to build up her relationship for at least a few more years if they even wanted to get her married as well. But that's at least a closer goal in my mind.

Well, I agree if they just randomly had a kid in the next arc it probably would be awkward. I'm just being very general with the idea, not with a entire mapped out story on how to give Diana a child.

[The Dying Detective]

I'll give you Cheetah though it's a bit of a stretch imo but Steve was defined as nothing more than Diana's ex who was bitter about her relationship with Clark.

If Johns was writing for Wonder Woman and even though a lot of ideas that were implemented into the movie were from Patty Jenkins he might characterise Steve more like his movie counterpart. I mean even he should admit that's probably the most interesting iteration of Steve Trevor to date and it even led to Stev actually being made into a figure to sell I don't think anyone's even made a figure of Steve Trevor at all.

[WonderScott]

I feel like Wonder Woman has the opposite problem as everyone else, in that the last thing she needs is new villains, but to put some attention on the countless ones she already has that never get any focus. A new Villainy Inc would pretty much be the same as featuring new villains; unlike Cheetah or Psycho, the members of that team only show up once every few decades, and in bit parts at that. It's not like Zara or Eviless have gotten the same play as Batman's major villains (or even lower tier ones).

This. My mindset falls along these lines too. There are so many interesting Wonder villains to refresh or revamp from her history, that I'm not exactly looking for new villains right now. Diana has the issue of only a single title, so she doesn't have as much real estate to showcase stories with classic foes, while introducing new ones in parallel. (Something that I think helped characters like Bane and Doomsday once upon a time.)

[Nyssane]

The whole "Wonder Woman needs better villains" argument is kind of moot at this point, anyway. Okay, yeah, Robinson's run did literally nothing to elevate her rogues gallery other than bringing back Zara and Blue Snowman for future writers to hopefully use, but Rucka set up a pretty great foundation of classic villains that for all purposes should be Wonder Woman's core rogues gallery going forward. The argument definitely had more traction pre-Rebirth where the New 52 used basically none of her existing villains and committed the cardinal sin for Wonder Woman: created new ones that nobody cared about.

As for "Fresh Start," what does that even mean? Hopefully not more reboots/retcons. Putting a new creative team on the series? Uh, that happens all the time. It just seems odd that they would use the phrasing "fresh start" to describe the comics going forward.

[SiegePerilous02]

I'll give you Cheetah though it's a bit of a stretch imo but Steve was defined as nothing more than Diana's ex who was bitter about her relationship with Clark.

Johns rescued Steve from the useless state he was in post-Crisis and restored his classic purpose at least. It's not much, but is better than what was being done with him before. And he wrote Steve as being professional enough to not be a dick to Diana (except when he was being influenced by Pandora's box or doped up on painkillers after nearly being killed and she was cutting ties with him for dubious reasons, neither of which is entirely fair to judge) and to put his feelings aside during his job. It was Soule who wrote him as an entitled, bitter jerk. .

[SiegePerilous02]

The whole "Wonder Woman needs better villains" argument is kind of moot at this point, anyway. Okay, yeah, Robinson's run did literally nothing to elevate her rogues gallery other than bringing back Zara and Blue Snowman for future writers to hopefully use, but Rucka set up a pretty great foundation of classic villains that for all purposes should be Wonder Woman's core rogues gallery going forward. The argument definitely had more traction pre-Rebirth where the New 52 used basically none of her existing villains and committed the cardinal sin for Wonder Woman: created new ones that nobody cared about.

Agreed. I think the core rogues gallery should be those introduced in Rucka's run (Cheetah, Circe, Veronica, Dr. Cyber, Dr. Poison) along with Psycho, the Silver Swan and the rest of the classic Villainy Inc lineup. And while Rucka utilized all of his (save Maru) very well, there are plenty of threads to pick up on with them, and the rest haven't been adequately explored at all.

Though IDK, I'm getting less harsh on the First Born and Cassandra after seeing what Robinson and Finch have done to the Swan, Dr. Poison and Aegeus. I think it's better to not use the classic villains at all than to use them poorly, though someone like Rucka is my ideal.

[The Dying Detective]

Johns rescued Steve from the useless state he was in post-Crisis and restored his classic purpose at least. It's not much, but is better than what was being done with him before. And he wrote Steve as being professional enough to not be a dick to Diana (except when he was being influenced by Pandora's box or doped up on painkillers after nearly being killed and she was cutting ties with him for dubious reasons, neither of which is entirely fair to judge) and to put his feelings aside during his job. It was Soule who wrote him as an entitled, bitter jerk. .

I tell you if Johns was the writer for Wonder Woman he'd probably fill out her universe the same way he did for Green Lantern's and Aquaman in his impending Rise of the Seven Seas story. I'll bet he'll introduce different tribes of Amazons maybe even one that has men in it only with a matriarchal society. We already have the Amazons of Bana Migdhall who live in Qurac. What's one or two more anyway? It'll probably be such a phenomenal run no one will dare dump it. I admit I'm probably pumped for the idea that Johns might take Wonder Woman and her supporting cast and villains to the next level because that's what each new writer has to do build off what's been done before and take it to the next level.

[SiegePerilous02]

I tell you if Johns was the writer for Wonder Woman he'd probably fill out her universe the same way he did for Green Lantern's and Aquaman in his impending Rise of the Seven Seas story. I'll bet he'll introduce different tribes of Amazons maybe even one that has men in it only with a matriarchal society. We already have the Amazons of Bana Migdhall who live in Qurac. What's one or two more anyway? It'll probably be such a phenomenal run no one will dare dump it. I admit I'm probably pumped for the idea that Johns might take Wonder Woman and her supporting cast and villains to the next level because that's what each new writer has to do build off what's been done before and take it to the next level.

I'm honestly kind of wondering if this will ever see the light of day at this point. Shame to, because it's the most likely place we could have seen Queen Clea. I wonder if she's being "held hostage" by this story being in development hell?

With Johns, I wouldn't know what to expect. Doomsday Clock is the best thing he's written in ages, but the delays are having a detrimental effect on a lot of things. I generally love a lot of his ideas, but Grail and Jason were duds, so I have to wonder if any other additions to the WW mythos he made would end up the same.

[Dr. Poison]

Agreed. I think the core rogues gallery should be those introduced in Rucka's run (Cheetah, Circe, Veronica, Dr. Cyber, Dr. Poison) along with Psycho, the Silver Swan and the rest of the classic Villainy Inc lineup. And while Rucka utilized all of his (save Maru) very well, there are plenty of threads to pick up on with them, and the rest haven't been adequately explored at all.

Though IDK, I'm getting less harsh on the First Born and Cassandra after seeing what Robinson and Finch have done to the Swan, Dr. Poison and Aegeus. I think it's better to not use the classic villains at all than to use them poorly, though someone like Rucka is my ideal.

While I agree that Finch's Dr. Poison and Aegeus were disappointments, Robinson's Silver Swan was more of a lasting threat than either the First Born or Cassandra IMO. The latter two seemed very generic and one note to me with little possibilities for future stories.