If You Wrote Comics: Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Mockingbird

[The Dying Detective]

With someone like McCann or Zub. He desperately needs one where he isn't constantly disrespected.

Maybe at some point Marvel will realise to give Clint the respect he deserves he should get a solo and a good writer who likes him.

[Sneakronicity]

Maybe at some point Marvel will realise to give Clint the respect he deserves he should get a solo and a good writer who likes him.

I really enjoyed how Rosenberg wrote him in Tales of Suspense. He still had some of the Fraction goofiness, but was really competent and intelligent as well. It was a really good take. Also completely different considering the world, but Ethan Sacks' Old Man Hawkeye is fantastic.

[Alan2099]

It's kind of hard to mash both versions of Clint's costumes honestly they don't exactly match well together.

That's because the old costume was awesome and the new costume is about as generic as a costume gets.

There's a saying about that. "If you mix a half a gallon of ice cream and a half a gallon of manure you get a gallon of manure."

Don't mix them. Ditch the crappy one and carry on with the good stuff.

[Sneakronicity]

I don't mean necessarily mix them, I just man give him a new costume that's somewhere in between the no effort new look and the circus showman old look. Would be fun to see a new design.

[KurtW95]

That's because the old costume was awesome and the new costume is about as generic as a costume gets.

There's a saying about that. "If you mix a half a gallon of ice cream and a half a gallon of manure you get a gallon of manure."

Don't mix them. Ditch the crappy one and carry on with the good stuff.

Yeah, it's hard to meets someone halfway on something designed for a visual medium vs. civilian clothes and sunglasses. If comics about street-level characters don't have colorful costumes, what is even the point of having illustrations? I really hate the whole newfound embarrassment of classic costumes where the only time they're referenced, it's for some sort of postmodern irony or a character making fun of it. That said, I feel like the mask is the most important part. I could conceivably settle for something that included it even though it wouldn't be as preferable as bringing back the whole thing.

[responsarbre]

Seems like a bit much to combine all three, isn't it?

I'll start with Black Widow:
I think Natasha has suffered slightly from some of the dark and dreary stories she's been shoved in lately. I think her strength as a character is that she has the ability to inhabit a lot of different spaces (literally and metaphorically). There's a bit of a perception of her as a "generic badass action girl" who just hits people and mopes about her ~dark past~ which I don't think is accurate, but isn't particularly helped by all those stories which have her going around being extra-violent and moping about her dark past. The key to her character is that she's a very tragic figure, but in a traditional sense; she lives a life shrouded by grief and pain, and those things don't necessarily harden her heart so much as they teach her value of compassion and reaching out to others. I think Marjorie Liu was spot-on when she more or less summed up the lesson that Natasha always keeps coming back to as "learning the value having loved and lived, and loving and living again."

Anyways, my story would probably be a really glitzy spyfi affair that jetted around a lot of Marvel Universe locations. It would be big on both fictional and realistic spy stuff: funky gadgets, elaborate disguises, eavesdropping and tailing maneuvers, deception tactics, accumulated aliases, clever infiltration stuff. Less guns and cloak-and-dagger, more crazy electric-ammo shock firearms, updates to the Widow's Bites, and high-flying stunts. My first storyline would be about the tension between her public identity as a superhero and her life as a spy. The villain would be luring her out threatening old friends from the days when Black Widow was a regular feature on the front page of newspapers: her friends from the community center she saved from evil politicians in Amazing Adventures, her San Francisco contacts from the Daredevil and the Black Widow days, and the people she met as part of the Champions. It would be a fun way to use that sort of deep continuity, and the best candidate because those early 70s stories were the longest stretch of time when she had no attachment to SHIELD or spying in general.

In my crazy, unrealistic fantasy, I'd also love to do a second Black Widow book that was more of an Untold Tales of Black Widow. (I know the various Wolverine Origin books are kind of a warning story against that, but in my fantasy world, they would be good and not bad like those were.) The main thing I would want to focus on is fleshing out a lot of the ambiguous, poorly told, or badly-written stuff in her existing origin. Basically expanding on stuff I liked and getting rid of stuff I didn't; mostly just want to reinforce the idea that Cornell introduced that Natasha only spent a tiny amount of time in "murder school for girl orphans" instead of her entire childhood, and only officially joined the Red Room as an adult. The actual stories would probably alternate between stuff in her childhood and pre-Red Room period, stuff while she was in the Red Room, and revisiting her early appearances in Tales of Suspense and Avengers in order to make them work better in a post-Soviet context. This book would be a lot closer to a noir cloak-and-dagger, with more of a Rucka/Brubaker tone.

[responsarbre]

Hawkeye:
I would do a story focused on his relationship with leadership. I think that's a typical theme for Hawkeye stories (and one that I think Old Man Hawkeye is focusing on? I haven't read it yet...) but I think there's still more material to mine there. Why did he want to be leader so bad back in the early days of the Avengers? How have his views on that responsibility changed? I would want to bring back the old costume. And I would stay far away the "ex-girlfriend chorus" that Fraction introduced. It's kind of weird and demeaning to the group of them; each of their appearances should be carefully considered and motivated.

For Kate, I sort of want her to try wearing the costume from the cover of the Generations one-shot, if only for an issue or two. I'm not sure if I want her to get a new costume or not; her current one works fine, even if it is a bit bland. I can't think of a concept for costume I like better. I think West Coast Avengers is a good place for her. I had sort of a knee-jerk reaction to the lineup (too many strong personalities and not enough use of classic Avengers characters) but I don't see much wrong with it for Kate.

Mockingbird:
I would keep on doing the stuff Cain was doing. Clever use of continuity, character, and recent developments in Battle Scars. I would lean towards ditching the new costume, which is all sorts of boring and needlessly busy, and go back to the McCann design. I would probably trade the goggles for a domino mask, though, out of personal preference. And I would stay far, far away from the Phantom Rider stuff. I know the idea of this thread is that you're supposed to be the one writing, but I sort of wished Cain could have kept on going with Mockingbird and been able to reunite with Joelle Jones for at least another couple of arcs. (Kate Niemczyk's stuff was great and she rapidly got acclimated into the flow of making sequential art, but I found myself missing the psychedelic and stylized stuff from the one-shot Cain did with Jones.)

[The Dying Detective]

Seems like a bit much to combine all three, isn't it?

I'll start with Black Widow:
I think Natasha has suffered slightly from some of the dark and dreary stories she's been shoved in lately. I think her strength as a character is that she has the ability to inhabit a lot of different spaces (literally and metaphorically). There's a bit of a perception of her as a "generic badass action girl" who just hits people and mopes about her ~dark past~ which I don't think is accurate, but isn't particularly helped by all those stories which have her going around being extra-violent and moping about her dark past. The key to her character is that she's a very tragic figure, but in a traditional sense; she lives a life shrouded by grief and pain, and those things don't necessarily harden her heart so much as they teach her value of compassion and reaching out to others. I think Marjorie Liu was spot-on when she more or less summed up the lesson that Natasha always keeps coming back to as "learning the value having loved and lived, and loving and living again."

Anyways, my story would probably be a really glitzy spyfi affair that jetted around a lot of Marvel Universe locations. It would be big on both fictional and realistic spy stuff: funky gadgets, elaborate disguises, eavesdropping and tailing maneuvers, deception tactics, accumulated aliases, clever infiltration stuff. Less guns and cloak-and-dagger, more crazy electric-ammo shock firearms, updates to the Widow's Bites, and high-flying stunts. My first storyline would be about the tension between her public identity as a superhero and her life as a spy. The villain would be luring her out threatening old friends from the days when Black Widow was a regular feature on the front page of newspapers: her friends from the community center she saved from evil politicians in Amazing Adventures, her San Francisco contacts from the Daredevil and the Black Widow days, and the people she met as part of the Champions. It would be a fun way to use that sort of deep continuity, and the best candidate because those early 70s stories were the longest stretch of time when she had no attachment to SHIELD or spying in general.

In my crazy, unrealistic fantasy, I'd also love to do a second Black Widow book that was more of an Untold Tales of Black Widow. (I know the various Wolverine Origin books are kind of a warning story against that, but in my fantasy world, they would be good and not bad like those were.) The main thing I would want to focus on is fleshing out a lot of the ambiguous, poorly told, or badly-written stuff in her existing origin. Basically expanding on stuff I liked and getting rid of stuff I didn't; mostly just want to reinforce the idea that Cornell introduced that Natasha only spent a tiny amount of time in "murder school for girl orphans" instead of her entire childhood, and only officially joined the Red Room as an adult. The actual stories would probably alternate between stuff in her childhood and pre-Red Room period, stuff while she was in the Red Room, and revisiting her early appearances in Tales of Suspense and Avengers in order to make them work better in a post-Soviet context. This book would be a lot closer to a noir cloak-and-dagger, with more of a Rucka/Brubaker tone.

Well i thought Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Mockingbird could not sustain interest in a thread alone so I put them together. ALso your ideas are pretty good and they do show that Natasha does have a life outside of being a super spy and superheroine. Any thoughts enemies and supporting cast though?

[OOTCS]

Mockingbird: I'd like to see the World Counterterrorism Agency brought back. Maybe not in its original form, because it was created in a vacuum where SHIELD didn't exist and we know that right now, Bobbi is taking orders from Fury Jr., but I want to see those characters again. They could still do smaller, more targeted operations while being completely independent from SHIELD. I also want to see her teaming up with Kate, because the potential for Clint-Bobbi-Kate as a family has been woefully unexplored. I really like the mentorship thing she has going on with Silk and Nadia, and I'd like to see that continue. And if I can spare a second for the thing that no one wants to talk about: I'd like to see it explicitly stated on-panel that the thing she said to Phantom Rider in Mockingbird #8 was a lie for the purpose of getting him to leave her alone, but I'd also be perfectly happy if it were never brought up again, and the readers could be left to reach that conclusion on our own.

Black Widow: What does it mean that she's a clone? What does it mean that Yelena and Anya are clones? Who is Anya, and what kind of past relationship do she and Natasha have? A team-up story between the three of them that addresses all this would be perfect. Would also like to see her interact more with Matt Murdock (in a non-romantic capacity) and have more adventure storylines that are more than "my past has come back to haunt me again." Oh, and more frenemy stuff with Elektra, like she had in Daredevil and Name of the Rose.

Hawkeye: Classic costume! Avenger-y stuff! More one-on-one with Cap! The ideal is for him to reunite with Bobbi, but at the very least, I would like at least for them to check in and discuss the status of their relationship. Given all of the things he's done over the past few years, the reason that they broke up in Hawkeye & Mockingbird doesn't really apply anymore, and at the very least, this should be acknowledged.

[saiyan_earthling]

Black Widow: I'd like for her to have the same, or similar appearance as her Sideshow premium format statue that's coming soon, have her go on her own solo espionage/stealth missions. Winter Soldier, Daredevil and Punisher could make guest appearances.

Mockingbird: I'm among the few who appreciates her new costumes from ASM and her recent series, so I'd like her to keep either one. She'd do the same as Black Widow, but assuming she's still with SHIELD (assuming it's still active), of if she's with another group, she'd do a couple of missions, on her own, or with a team mate. I'd like Spider-Man and Hawkeye to make a guest appearance. I'd also focus a lot on her intellect, considering her PHD in Bio.

Both: Stealth, a lot of stealth, as they are spies, and I'd put in fight scenes not in every issue. In a perfect, I'd like to see the both do stealth takedowns with rear chokes and neck breaks haha

[ed2962]

Black Widow: I liked the last series and the first arc of the Edmonson series, but she really needs her own support cast and rogues etc. Bring back her handler, maybe Ivan's son, and perhaps the older lady from Avengers Spotlight...?? I'm trying to think if there's characters from Amazing Adventures to use...I'd definitely take foes from the Marvel Fanfare story and update them. Beyond that, make the title a balance between over the top superhero/super spy stuff and grounded espionage stuff. One arc would be Nat taking on Snap Dragon or AIM and the next would her bringing down ISIS.

Mockingbird: I actually didn't mind what Cain was doing ( aside from the continuity screw ups). I'd continue in that vein. Bring in the ex-husband from the TV show. Dig up C-List villains for her rogues.

Hawkeye: Fraction's run was good comics...the problem was that he regressed Clint's character. Keep that set up with Kate as his assistant, him running the building etc. But portray him as the guy who's been married, led a couple of superhero teams, has loose SHIELD connections...he's still the regular guy smart-ass, but he's matured a bit and he's proven himself to be a competent leader. Tone down that "lovable loser" thing...he moved beyond that years ago. On the other hand, him being the underdog is part of Clint's appeal. Half the time his adventures are street level stuff, the other half it's stuff just slightly above his pay grade (the Sinister Six, Crimson Dynamo, whatever). I actually don't mind his current costume.

[The Dying Detective]

Black Widow: I liked the last series and the first arc of the Edmonson series, but she really needs her own support cast and rogues etc. Bring back her handler, maybe Ivan's son, and perhaps the older lady from Avengers Spotlight...?? I'm trying to think if there's characters from Amazing Adventures to use...I'd definitely take foes from the Marvel Fanfare story and update them. Beyond that, make the title a balance between over the top superhero/super spy stuff and grounded espionage stuff. One arc would be Nat taking on Snap Dragon or AIM and the next would her bringing down ISIS.

Mockingbird: I actually didn't mind what Cain was doing ( aside from the continuity screw ups). I'd continue in that vein. Bring in the ex-husband from the TV show. Dig up C-List villains for her rogues.

Hawkeye: Fraction's run was good comics...the problem was that he regressed Clint's character. Keep that set up with Kate as his assistant, him running the building etc. But portray him as the guy who's been married, led a couple of superhero teams, has loose SHIELD connections...he's still the regular guy smart-ass, but he's matured a bit and he's proven himself to be a competent leader. Tone down that "lovable loser" thing...he moved beyond that years ago. On the other hand, him being the underdog is part of Clint's appeal. Half the time his adventures are street level stuff, the other half it's stuff just slightly above his pay grade (the Sinister Six, Crimson Dynamo, whatever). I actually don't mind his current costume.

What continuity screw ups?

[ed2962]

What continuity screw ups?

The story that suggests there weren't female heroes in silver age Marvel. We can debate how well or poorly they were portrayed but you definitely had Wasp, Sue Storm, and Marvel Girl. After that Black Widow, Shanna, and The Cat. I actually remember an issue of West Coast Avengers where the Thing shows up and Bobbi has a thought balloon where she's admiring the FF as her generation's first great heroes, so of course she's aware of Invisible Girl.

The other one is the whole Phantom Rider thing. I emotionally get why Cain did her retcon, but now that old West Coast Avengers story makes no sense. If she just had an affair, then why did she left PR die, etc?

[The Dying Detective]

The story that suggests there weren't female heroes in silver age Marvel. We can debate how well or poorly they were portrayed but you definitely had Wasp, Sue Storm, and Marvel Girl. After that Black Widow, Shanna, and The Cat. I actually remember an issue of West Coast Avengers where the Thing shows up and Bobbi has a thought balloon where she's admiring the FF as her generation's first great heroes, so of course she's aware of Invisible Girl.

The other one is the whole Phantom Rider thing. I emotionally get why Cain did her retcon, but now that old West Coast Avengers story makes no sense. If she just had an affair, then why did she left PR die, etc?

Sounds messed up I wonder what these writer smoke when they do these things? And I am guessing the affair with the Phantom Rider had something to do with the fractured relationship between Bobbi and Clint.

[MyriVerse]

For some reason, I never really accepted the Mockingbird thing. They meet up for a miniseries and by the end of the story they're married? And we're supposed to believe this is soulmates? Puh-lease. What, is it written somewhere that archers have to hook up with bird-motifed characters? Bah! Don't particularly like GA with Black Canary, either. Especially after it ended, I think the only thing Bobbi should have to say to Clint is at the end of a fist. He never properly made up for that load of equine fecal matter, imo. I do not get why Cain retconned the Phantom thing, and I consider it one of the worst misogynist stories of the past decade. It completely makes Bobbi a lying weak idiot.

Honestly, I don't particularly like Clint with any romantic attachments. Black Widow was a calamity on his part. That shouldn't be touched again with any 50-foot pole. If anybody, then Echo or Jess Jones, but even then... nah. In contrast to the rest of his life and missions, I think his romantic life should be a disaster. Generally, I think his focus should be as true as his codename suggests.

I'm not a fan of any of the Young Avengers, but least of all Kate Bishop. If he's going to have a sidekick, something I'm generally opposed to in comics, I think the sidekick should be fully adult and a complete novice that Clint has to mold. There should be no question that he is the master and the sidekick the student. Clint was at his best when being a good leader to the Thunderbolts, imo.