Wonder Woman #45 - Discussion & Spoilers

[WonderScott]

I finally read the issue yesterday and don't have too much to add to the disappointment found in others's commentary.

This whole story felt plot-driven instead of character-driven, with the obvious goal to get Darkseid from point A to point B in prep for his role in No Justice.

For as exciting as it should be for the divinity of the New Gods, Apokoliptans, and Princess of Apokolips to clash with the divinity of the Olympians and Princess of the Amazons, this was pretty staid. Lots of repetition and characters restating the actions of other characters and, besides the one issue where Diana and Steve caught up and Diana had an encounter with Cale, not a ton of characterization that pushed Diana, Steve, Grail, Darkseid, or Jason forward.

Besides Darkseid's devolution and some Paradamazons, we're more or less back to the same status quo and most of the toys were put back in the box. Even the death of Zeus and the fate of Diana's other demisiblings was left open with the possibility of their return.

Things I'd like to see get resolved at some point:
- Diana and Jason having lost their opportunity to access Themyscira and Hippolyta yet again. When can we get the Amazons as supporting players again?
- Diana, Steve, and ARGUS finding a way to de-Paradamazon the Amazons that were turned into Parademons. Once they're de-Paradamazoned, what will happen to them if they can't access Themyscira?
- ARGUS is going to need to be rebuilt and a new neon sign in going to need to be ordered.
- Where's Etta?
- How do the other Olympians feel about Zeus and Heracles being murdered? Their leader and one of his most important kids are gone. You'd think they might start a vendetta against Apokolips for the harm they've caused.
- Side note: If Zeus is gone, how does that affect Shazam and his powers?

[Agent Z]

I finally read the issue yesterday and don't have too much to add to the disappointment found in others's commentary.

This whole story felt plot-driven instead of character-driven, with the obvious goal to get Darkseid from point A to point B in prep for his role in No Justice.

For as exciting as it should be for the divinity of the New Gods, Apokoliptans, and Princess of Apokolips to clash with the divinity of the Olympians and Princess of the Amazons, this was pretty staid. Lots of repetition and characters restating the actions of other characters and, besides the one issue where Diana and Steve caught up and Diana had an encounter with Cale, not a ton of characterization that pushed Diana, Steve, Grail, Darkseid, or Jason forward.

Besides Darkseid's devolution and some Paradamazons, we're more or less back to the same status quo and most of the toys were put back in the box. Even the death of Zeus and the fate of Diana's other demisiblings was left open with the possibility of their return.

Things I'd like to see get resolved at some point:
- Diana and Jason having lost their opportunity to access Themyscira and Hippolyta yet again. When can we get the Amazons as supporting players again?
- Diana, Steve, and ARGUS finding a way to de-Paradamazon the Amazons that were turned into Parademons. Once they're de-Paradamazoned, what will happen to them if they can't access Themyscira?
- ARGUS is going to need to be rebuilt and a new neon sign in going to need to be ordered.
- Where's Etta?
- How do the other Olympians feel about Zeus and Heracles being murdered? Their leader and one of his most important kids are gone. You'd think they might start a vendetta against Apokolips for the harm they've caused.
- Side note: If Zeus is gone, how does that affect Shazam and his powers?

It doesn't. Shazam doesn't draw his powers from them so much as he has copies of their abilities. Remember he has the durability of Achilles and the wisdom of Solomon and those two aren't alive.

[Nyssane]

- How do the other Olympians feel about Zeus and Heracles being murdered? Their leader and one of his most important kids are gone. You'd think they might start a vendetta against Apokolips for the harm they've caused.

You know what, I didn't think of that! I do wonder what the other gods will feel about Zeus (and I guess Hercules) being murdered. I can't see them stand idly by while this happens. Although we still haven't gotten a feel for them beyond their animal appearances and the brief glimpse of Athena, I doubt they're all vying for the throne with Zeus gone like in Azz's run.

[WonderScott]

It doesn't. Shazam doesn't draw his powers from them so much as he has copies of their abilities. Remember he has the durability of Achilles and the wisdom of Solomon and those two aren't alive.

Good point - I was a little annoyed when they changed the magic empowerment to being the gods again during Darkseid War. I kind of liked the former and the Council of Eternity when Johns and Frank reintroduced the characters. It gave them a new history of the power of Shazam to chart. I guess that's splitting hairs a bit with Shazam though, considering he's magically embued with a version of the gods's abilities.

[WonderScott]

You know what, I didn't think of that! I do wonder what the other gods will feel about Zeus (and I guess Hercules) being murdered. I can't see them stand idly by while this happens. Although we still haven't gotten a feel for them beyond their animal appearances and the brief glimpse of Athena, I doubt they're all vying for the throne with Zeus gone like in Azz's run.

Yeah, I kind of want to see a War of the Gods with Olympians and Apokoliptans over this. If only to see Hera and Highfather flirt again. I know Azz's tales are out of continuity now (although we still have the mystery of two Themysciras), but a high point in his run was seeing Highfather treat Hera with respect - something Zeus has had issue with being able to do. I'd be up for the two dating and some commingling between the Olympians, New Genosians, and Apokoliptans to push them all into a new paradigm.

[Batgrayson]

I can see some amazing ideas behind this story, but the execution, characterization, and dialogues were a mess.

[brettc1]

I can see some amazing ideas behind this story, but the execution, characterization, and dialogues were a mess.

Sure. Turning Amazons into elite Parademons does make sense. I think Robinson even dipped into the JL movie a bit there.

But the whole execution was lacklustre. A story like that feels like it should go four issues at least once the island is attacked. The hand wave resolution here stole whatever impact the story had a chance of making.

[Darkspellmaster]

I haven't posted because it's always the same arguments over again so I am aware I'm in the minority but as flawed as the run is it's just better than the mess Rucka did last time. That is what I consider boring.

Like, sure the power of love is cliché trope as it comes but why does she suddently need to be on intimate basis with her half siblings and father to use the love that is there to shortcuit Darkseid? You already know Zeus cares about her, you already know that this Hercules cares and respects of her. You already know that any connection that would severe the link that made Darkseid keep the power he usurped is something the energy prints of the stolen would be all the willing to help her with. This was basically her channeling a lasso type ability without the Lariat.

But yeah the majority of this Forum didn't look interested it from the start, so, moving on.

Gonna agree that I'm in the minority too. Having Diana beat him with love, while a trope actually does make sense given that she used it against Ares sons previously. Not only that but beating Darksied would really do nothing for her as we've seen him beat down before. This was, while not the best execution, something different than the fight all the time Diana we had in 52 previously, save for some parts by Azz.

[Gaelforce]

Gonna agree that I'm in the minority too. Having Diana beat him with love, while a trope actually does make sense given that she used it against Ares sons previously. Not only that but beating Darksied would really do nothing for her as we've seen him beat down before. This was, while not the best execution, something different than the fight all the time Diana we had in 52 previously, save for some parts by Azz.

I like that idea, but it's just hard for me to swallow considering these are the 'spirits' of Diana's family who she has never met or tried to meet. There's no special 'love connection,' so to speak, so that just caused the scene to just fizzle out.

Great concept, if not a bit derivative of the end of the WW movie, but it's a payoff without any real build up. If this had been the Justice League or Steve and the Oddfellows, or her mother and Amazon sisters? Then it would have been a beautiful moment. But a bunch of strangers she didn't know including an absentee father?

Again, for me, this just fell apart on that basis.

[Mel Dyer]

I think the love angle is overplayed in how James Robinson orchestrates WW beating Darkseid.

If James bothered to introduce us to this tactile telepathy, as some rarely used skill of her Amazon training - maybe, one so dangerous, it could have killed her - I'd have cheered, from the stands. If Diana, after the victory, was asked, "Diana, ..how did you...?", and she responded, "I don't know. I've never been able to bla'bla bla an opponent, as powerful, as Darkseid, before!", ..I could feel good about this scene. Instead, we are to understand this to be a new or hidden super-power, and that's what makes it so hard for me to accept.

I guess expecting JR to work the Golden Lasso into such an important scene, in such an important story...too much? Just the same, I'm so glad that some enchantment on Diana's sword, which became so important in WW #44, wasn't Papiseid's undoing. Seeing writers undersell the power of the Lasso, as Diana's primary weapon, with her use of a sword, ..that would have been even more infuriating.

[Darkspellmaster]

I like that idea, but it's just hard for me to swallow considering these are the 'spirits' of Diana's family who she has never met or tried to meet. There's no special 'love connection,' so to speak, so that just caused the scene to just fizzle out.

Great concept, if not a bit derivative of the end of the WW movie, but it's a payoff without any real build up. If this had been the Justice League or Steve and the Oddfellows, or her mother and Amazon sisters? Then it would have been a beautiful moment. But a bunch of strangers she didn't know including an absentee father?

Again, for me, this just fell apart on that basis.

See I assumed it wasn't familial love that she was using here, but rather the same sort of love that she would extend to others, and maybe a bit different. Like not a close connection, but something that was more of a deep understanding that she could have with those that passed on as they are connected to one another. Like half siblings, for example. You may not have the same level of "love" you would for them if they were full siblings and lived with them, but you do have a connection through one of your parents. It's a connection through what you feel for that parent that connects the dots between you and them. That's how I was viewing it. She may not have known them, but she probably feels that they were good people leading decent lives and they were cut short because of their connection to each other.

I get the feeling that if this was given more time it could be stronger, but maybe because I've been reading novels recently were you have these weird family connections being made, or like with Green Arrow and his half sister, I kind of get it. And it's fine if it didn't work for you on a certain level. I think the telling part will be the moving forward and using what happened here to make a stronger story. Maybe at some point Diana may learn about the different siblings with Jason and it might help them bond more as they learn about who the others were and their lives?

I think the love angle is overplayed in how James Robinson orchestrates WW beating Darkseid.

If James bothered to introduce us to this tactile telepathy, as some rarely used skill of her Amazon training - maybe, one so dangerous, it could have killed her - I'd have cheered, from the stands. If Diana, after the victory, was asked, "Diana, ..how did you...?", and she responded, "I don't know. I've never been able to bla'bla bla an opponent, as powerful, as Darkseid, before!", ..I could feel good about this scene. Instead, we are to understand this to be a new or hidden super-power, and that's what makes it so hard for me to accept.

I guess expecting JR to work the Golden Lasso into such an important scene, in such an important story...too much? Just the same, I'm so glad that some enchantment on Diana's sword, which became so important in WW #44, wasn't Papiseid's undoing. Seeing writers undersell the power of the Lasso, as Diana's primary weapon, with her use of a sword, ..that would have been even more infuriating.

See for me, and again, this might be me reading too many Japanese manga and how they tend to introduce powers there, but I would think that that JR will explore it again later in a different way. This story didn't feel 100 percent his in regard to aspects of it leading in for the JL story. But we've seen this happen before in Batman and for other DC characters where they seem to pull something out of thin air to be used for just that moment. It's not like they can't build on this now, and it could be that maybe she did know she could use it, but didn't have a reason to up to that point, or didn't think she could do it or something. I would think that, again, more could be explored in a cool down chapter and go over what happened, probably with Steve or look into it with Jason somewhat.

I agree that the lasso could have been used. However I'd like to propose that maybe because he had Zeus in him the Lasso wouldn't have worked properly against him at the time. And, as you said, I don't want her lasso being undersold. It would be bad if the Lasso was wrapped around him and didn't do anything at all .

[Agent Z]

I haven't posted because it's always the same arguments over again so I am aware I'm in the minority but as flawed as the run is it's just better than the mess Rucka did last time. That is what I consider boring.

Like, sure the power of love is cliché trope as it comes but why does she suddently need to be on intimate basis with her half siblings and father to use the love that is there to shortcuit Darkseid? You already know Zeus cares about her, you already know that this Hercules cares and respects of her. You already know that any connection that would severe the link that made Darkseid keep the power he usurped is something the energy prints of the stolen would be all the willing to help her with. This was basically her channeling a lasso type ability without the Lariat.

But yeah the majority of this Forum didn't look interested it from the start, so, moving on.

What exactly about this run in general is better? It's loaded with sexist writing, side lines Diana, uses the New Gods in the crappiest way possible and Jason and Grail may be the worst additions to the WW mythos if not the entire DC universe in a long time.

[Agent Z]

Also this is a much better showing of Diana defeating Darkseid with the power of love.

[Mel Dyer]

Could something as simple as a healing touch, very much in the wheelhouse of Amazon training, account for this tactile telepathy/exorcism of Darkseid? If Diana's intention was to heal Darkseid's body - alleviate it of the entities struggling to force their way out - then, conceivably, ..tactile exorcism, while an arcane ability, might already be within her capabilities.