Teresa Parker = Ultimate Spider-Woman?!

[leokearon]

I feel like the Spider-Franchise ebbs and flows from "too many Spiders" to "too many Symbiotes."

Don't forget clones

[Celgress]

Don't forget clones

Indeed, how could we forget that lol.

[AngelJD]

Don't forget clones

No More Mutants (House of M)
Too many sorcerers (Doctor Strange Stinger)
Too Many Spiders (a vibe that came from the Spider-Verse which ironically added more spiders due to writers making new creations and stories spun out from this)
Too Many Symbiotes (Current environment vibes which has moved in a circle was we had many 90's symbiotes created then killed constantly)
Too many Multiverses (Crisis on Infinite Earths made to abandonment of DC's Multiverse)
Too many Clon..people born by science. (again current vibes)
Wolverine Publicity (TV Tropes)


Much of this is stemmed from personal option.


Here's my take: too many of the same story/character tropes leading to the same results.
Taking only one of them: Clones
However as I like to think of them: People/Characters born by science. They are no longer clones the moment a different life experiences and choices are made that whom they are 'copied' from didn't have thus altering them into different people thus the term 'clone' can no longer apply but character developments and growth can. Thus the moment a person born by science wakes up for the first time (and is only a 'copy' of another if the same life experiences and memories are in place and not altered for that will affect them in their choices) a life experiences is had that the one they were 'copy' from to be brought to life doesn't have and from the get go that charate makes a choice outside of the other. Thus the word 'CLONES' is a inaccurate word and worse simplistic to a far more complicated characters situation. Thus why I rather we be saying 'characters born by science' (if it's not considered a resurrection then they are new characters or alternatives that just so happen to be born on a same Earth dimension where other versions existed yet still each a individual character to be in existence).

Characters born by science I find constantly get the shaft from everybody in story and out just because of the compucatied and nature of soul and as a person (plus how we treat others and how we respond to conflicts to what we believe in the nature of things). It's not a matter of 'who you are inside' vs the matter of who will be treated humanely and as a person.
I find horrible in 'Clone Stories' never to be the 'clone'. It's how the other characters react and treat fellow human beings with no sympathy. Actions and responses that are so disgusting.

Like a key time: When Ben was denied by Peter to go to Aunt May's funnual and he was suffering so and Peter knew this. We seen Peter regret how he can't save everybody. I would like for characters to look into their past actions and realise the hurt they caused to others. When their own demons showed up when treating a character who is labeled a 'clone'. To Peter and others to look inside himself and find his own faults as hard as it might be and vow to be better next time and learn.

I would love if Earth-65 Gwen Stacy (who was apart of Clone Conspiracy) having a adventure with 1610 Gwen Stacy. We heard how Earth-65 Gwen conmet about her clones alternates born in the Multiverse before. Doesn't hold any to high value in life. Hated how CC Gwen of 616 and Gwen of Earth-65 didn't interact at all or talk outside of kidnapping. I felt that was a lost opportunity.
I would like 65 Gwen and 1610 Gwen (Ultimate Universe) and Laura having a adventure. 65 Gwen really liking 1610 Gwen. Than 65 Gwen makes a snide comment about 'clones'. Then Both 1610 Gwen and Laura both speak up about how they are 'Clones' and 65 has to eat her words and see how disrespectful and prideful she was.

In Clone tales we are CONSTANTLY reminded by the writer they he/she/it is a CLONE. CLONE CLONE CLONE. Easy to not say chartater but treat like a disposable object. Everything from actions to words by those born by 'nature' to those born by 'science' is a message to readers to look down upon those born by 'science'. Even death is treated with no long term self reflection. The body becomes dust so Peter doesn't hold a dead person in his arm like Uncle Ben or first version 616 Gwen was. No mental image to be displayed. We all become dust in the end but to rush it is so the damage goes by much faster for readers so it won't matter as much.

Never to think about the other's experiences and views. How they think and what caused this. How it could feel if placed in the other's shoes.

A message of how we treat others and vow to always be better selves.


I hope actually a twist happens in the upcoming Renew Your Vows 'clone' tale that appears to be happening. The new character girl doesn't die. Treated like a sister and sticks with that. That Annie wanted a sister for a long time and once her sister is born she's actually thrilled much to Peters, MJs, and the villains shock/confusion as it not how they would react or has reacted or use to seeing and expected. That the cover lies.

[Huntsman Spider]

Cosigning AngelJD. Clones get too raw a deal in fiction, and probably because we're afraid of what they represent, namely the loss of "uniqueness." It's the idea that if there's a perfect replication of another person in existence somewhere, that means the person that was replicated matters less, because that person can just be replaced if something happens to him or her. Never mind that the clone/replica would have his or her own experiences to build on, even if his or her mind/memories started as a duplication of someone else's, his or her (near-)perfect resemblance to another person would render both of them less unique, and therefore less valuable, because one could "easily" replace the other. That's really the fear behind how clones are treated, that the viability of cloning makes all of us less unique, less valuable, and easily replaceable, and while there are those who will have that mindset about clones, we should not let that fear cause us to dehumanize people that, being literally made from us, are almost exactly like us in all the ways that truly count.

In short, when clones matter, we all matter.

[TheCape]

As someone that isn't really fond of the Spider-Family or Theresa Parker, i think that Ben Reilly and Kaine were actually different enougth to be keep around and actually have an interesting relationship with Peter, i heard good things about PAD Scarlet Spider but i can't get over the fact that he was brougth back as a villain.

[Inversed]

I think that's why Ultimate Jessica Drew is one of my favourite Spider-Man characters, because she perfectly encapsulates that struggle. She has all the memories of another guy, but is a different gender, and slowly develops her own feelings & personality, and what does that mean about who and what she is?

[AngelJD]

Overall if characters are treated by other characters as CHARACTERS we see them as important characters.

In the recent Spider-Gwen issues Earth 617 came to be when due to time and dimensional travels 65 Gwen met 616 Gwen after 616 Gwen's father died but just before 616 Gwen would die. This never happened in 616 history thus a 'temporal junction' was made and from it 617 was born. 617 and all that inhabit it has the exact history of 616 until that 'temporal junction' which then both butterfly and domino effect happened leading to new results.
Is 617 a 'clone' of 616 thus no characters there should be cared about if for some reason a writer wanted to set a series within that world? Or science it's a 'Alternate reality' the character should be treated with respect?
Funny how 617 when meeting 65 Gwen feared she was a 'clone' but discovering 65 Gwen came from 'Alternate reality' thus a 'Alternate vs clone' 617 Gwen became comfortable.
Since as I wrote 'clones' has different experiences and then choices that define them they should be more labeled as 'Alternates' vs 'Clones' but with the difference is their birth Earth being the same number. Is it one matter if your 'alternate' want s to get home thus short term presence vs a 'alternate' whose home world is your own. Would 617 Gwen freaked if Earth-65 Gwen wanted to stay on 617 as she/65 is 'Gwen Stacy' but so is 617 'Gwen Stacy'.

Does the matter of how you see yourself vs how others see you. On Earth-1610 that Gwen is a 'Clone' Gwen HOWEVER Tony and the others see her as 'Gwen Stacy' back to life or at least a alternate and still a important gal and friend whose name is also Gwen Stacy.

If CC Gwen lived the matters of what makes you YOU
CC Gwen minus that disease has the same body. She wasn't altered to have superpowers or grow a tail or change of gender.
Mind CC Gwen according to the tale has the EXACT memories including death.
Soul CC Gwen: The real kicker between resurrection and birth of a new soul (and to add confusion Ben soul transfers but maybe not Gwens?)

Body, Mind, and Soul.
For me if you change the body it's still the same character. Peter was bitten by a spider and genetics (body) was altered but still is 'Peter Parker'.
Mind is a more crucial as we seen people get mind controlled or brainwashed (aka changing of memories/life experiences that affect choices, culture, and beliefs) and sometimes this makes them seen as different characters (Sam is dead and this new guy is around who isn't him) or seen as the same character (Sam is alive but we need to restore him/restore memories and prescriptive reality facts).

Lastly the Soul.
This falls into the realms of spirituality and even magic (something scientists Peter and Gwen don't have a link towards so they base on emotions). In the 616 Earth there exist 'souls' but the workings change per species and religion and other factors. Thor has his own Heaven that Jane almost went to, we seen hell and souls leave there, some say there are no such things or some don't have (Vision), and so much more. We don't know the rules of Souls for 'science' or 'nature' people or for 616 Gwen to make statements of true or false. For all we know Gwen's soul 'sleeps' every time in the afterlife and shot into each 'clone'. If that is the case then CC Gwen covers: Body, Mind, Soul elements and thus true 'resurrection'.

If instead CC Gwen doesn't have the same soul is she still not 'Gwen Stacy' but now a independent alternate and still rights to be treated like a person? Earth-65 Gwen Stacy is still 'Gwen Stacy' but has her own soul separate from 616 Gwen, 617, any number of Gwen's unless they form a hive mind afterlife collective.

Everytime I read the words "She not real" it's a disservice to one character and dickery from another. More in line of 'she's a separate individual of the Gwen Stacy you know of but still a person and can still be named and a totem Gwen Stacy and be a wonderful person in her own right and so much more'.

If 616 MJ met 65 Gwen would MJ go "You are not Real! You are a fake!"

So much more I like (iconography and Institutionalization routine/trained thinking on this matter) to write but lacking of time plus I think I'm getting off the topic and this probably should be moved if further continued.

[Hypestyle]

Cosigning AngelJD. Clones get too raw a deal in fiction, and probably because we're afraid of what they represent, namely the loss of "uniqueness." It's the idea that if there's a perfect replication of another person in existence somewhere, that means the person that was replicated matters less, because that person can just be replaced if something happens to him or her. Never mind that the clone/replica would have his or her own experiences to build on, even if his or her mind/memories started as a duplication of someone else's, his or her (near-)perfect resemblance to another person would render both of them less unique, and therefore less valuable, because one could "easily" replace the other. That's really the fear behind how clones are treated, that the viability of cloning makes all of us less unique, less valuable, and easily replaceable, and while there are those who will have that mindset about clones, we should not let that fear cause us to dehumanize people that, being literally made from us, are almost exactly like us in all the ways that truly count.

In short, when clones matter, we all matter.

clones didn't "earn" their memories.

[Sardorim]

Ultimate Universe was confirmed alive in Anya's book the Web Warriors after ended as Ultimate Jessica was shown as a new recruit.

[Huntsman Spider]

clones didn't "earn" their memories.

I meant from the point at which the clones were released from the birthing chamber/matrix, as it were. They would immediately begin to form their own experiences, therefore memories and eventually identity.

[Chris0013]

Read the Family Business story and the Spectacular run with her and I like her alot. But I would keep her away from spider powers, symbiotes and whatnot. Maybe super soldier her or low level super strength. Add that to her spy mojo and I think she would be able to handle herself in the super world.

[Huntsman Spider]

Read the Family Business story and the Spectacular run with her and I like her alot. But I would keep her away from spider powers, symbiotes and whatnot. Maybe super soldier her or low level super strength. Add that to her spy mojo and I think she would be able to handle herself in the super world.

I liked the Falcon/Vulture-style flight suit she was using for a while. That would be unique enough without making her another Spider-Person or a symbiote host. I'd personally recommend some form of powered armor, maybe something closer to Crysis or Metal Gear's Cyborg Ninja that emphasizes stealth, speed, and agility over heavy firepower and high-tech artillery.

[Chris0013]

I liked the Falcon/Vulture-style flight suit she was using for a while. That would be unique enough without making her another Spider-Person or a symbiote host. I'd personally recommend some form of powered armor, maybe something closer to Crysis or Metal Gear's Cyborg Ninja that emphasizes stealth, speed, and agility over heavy firepower and high-tech artillery.

I would be good with that too. An issue I had with the storyline in Spectacular was that she was a fugitive being hunted by every law enforcement agency in the country and she is running around in a wing suit with Spidey and not wearing a mask.

[Huntsman Spider]

I would be good with that too. An issue I had with the storyline in Spectacular was that she was a fugitive being hunted by every law enforcement agency in the country and she is running around in a wing suit with Spidey and not wearing a mask.

Given facial recognition software these days, that was rather foolhardy of her.

[Chris0013]

Given facial recognition software these days, that was rather foolhardy of her.

That and the fact they were going against Kingpin who knew her.