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  1. #91
    Astonishing Member Güicho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Ouch! Hurts to see 233 looking so abused.
    Abused? Or is that what a well loved comic should look like?
    Repeatedly held, cracked open, reexamined and likely shared not just among friends but one generation to the next.
    That is how comics were once "used" what made them "valuable".
    Not locked in acrylic case.
    Now that might be considered abuse.

    Wait I think that was the plot to Toy Story II
    Last edited by Güicho; 05-02-2018 at 09:16 AM.

  2. #92
    Amazing Member Deku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    People talk about Wally’s FLASH run like that was his first time as Flash—ignoring all his years as (Kid) Flash from 1960 to 1986. Wally was a participant in all those fun adventures.
    This isn't exactly true. After Wally's first appearance, Barry spent just as much or more time solo (or teaming up with the Elongated Man) then he did with Wally. Wally had his own solo stories as back-ups in the Flash book.
    PLUS ULTRA!

  3. #93
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    Posted by Jim Kelly
    People talk about Wally’s FLASH run like that was his first time as Flash—ignoring all his years as (Kid) Flash from 1960 to 1986. Wally was a participant in all those fun adventures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    This isn't exactly true.
    Allow me to rephrase, for the sake of making my meaning more clear:

    People talk about Wally’s FLASH run like that was his first time as Flash—ignoring all his years as (Kid) Flash from 1960 to 1986. Wally was a participant in all those fun adventures . . . of his,

    during those more than 25 years,

    with Barry, Jay or Ralph or more often in his own solo adventures or else with the Teen Titans and other heroes.

    Sorry for the confusion.
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  4. #94
    Astonishing Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    Abused? Or is that what a well loved comic should look like?
    Repeatedly held, cracked open, reexamined and likely shared not just among friends but one generation to the next.
    That is how comics were once "used" what made them "valuable".
    Not locked in acrylic case.
    Now that might be considered abuse.

    Wait I think that was the plot to Toy Story II
    Hey, Guicho, that looks like my copy! (Checks quickly to make sure mine is still there.--whew!)

  5. #95
    Spectacular Member Cap'n_RDM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    It was. It was built on "my uncle was the best person ever and gave his life to save everybody and he was AWESOME and I'll dedicate my life to measure up to him". There was a constant reminiscence of Barry? Sure. About his death/suffering/whatever? Not really. His life is what mattered most. And if every time you opened a Wally book what you saw in your head was Barry screaming for help, honestly, that's on you, not on the book itself.

    But I'm leaving this discussion; you seem really intent on debating things no one said in this thread, and also on proving a really specific reading you made of the Wally times that are neither relevant to the topic at hand nor represented on the run.

    Sorry, but again, I have no interest in debating whatever beef you have with Wally fandom (if that's what it is), or in going around debating the differences between a hero offering his life and a regular person made Swiss cheese by a serial killer.
    I understand you not wanting to continue the debate with Guicho. For the record though, I'm glad you have posted what you did as I agree with it 100%.

  6. #96
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    I'm bored with the 'dead parents' motivation. However, after all this time... I guess I can accept it with Barry. Even if it doesn't make a lot of sense...

    Original Story: Barry is a scientist who knows all the 'science facts' about physics and speed and puts them to use as a police scientist...

    New Story: Barry is so distraught over his personal tragedy that he devotes himself to forensic science to help clear his father...

    He's just a little to 'focused' on criminal forensics and frankly SHOULDN'T be the speed guru that we all knew and loved.


    But like I said, I can live with that I suppose... but what I would really REALLY love to see killed with fire is the 'Speed Force' concept. That all omnipotent force that has overwhelmed the flash comics for decades now is SOOOO annoying. I HATE it.

    Lightning + Secret mix of Chemicals.... = Flash. No particle accelerators... no speed force choosing him... Certainly no 'he generates it himself and powers everyone else'... No speed force costumes... no speed force prisons and traps... The speed force to me has become the same as the Rainbow Corps... It's the be all and end all explaination for everything.

    If you're going to have 10 speedsters... lets make them unique. Secret mental formulas... hard water chemicals specially treated uniforms... lets mix it up.

  7. #97
    Wally 'Ginger' West fan
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    I actually like the Speed Force Tailoring Service part of the Speed Force mythos because before that the idea that those boots and radio antennae could fit in a little ring just smacked of Doctor Who's Gallifreyan tech. Yes, Barry's a genius science/comic book nerd.... but 'cmon! For me that idea was right down there with 'hard water'.
    Parental care is way exhausting. Gained insight into what my parents went through when I was a baby. Not fun, but what ya gonna do? (Read comics, obviously.)

  8. #98
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyer View Post
    I actually like the Speed Force Tailoring Service part of the Speed Force mythos because before that the idea that those boots and radio antennae could fit in a little ring just smacked of Doctor Who's Gallifreyan tech. Yes, Barry's a genius science/comic book nerd.... but 'cmon! For me that idea was right down there with 'hard water'.
    Doctor Who fist aired on the BBC Saturday, 23 November 1963.
    I can't swear to when it first appeared in the comic book stories, but I believe the ring that holds Barry's miniaturized costume pre-dates the TV show.

  9. #99
    Wally 'Ginger' West fan
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    Oh I know. I was referring to the idea of miniaturization tech being another Barry Allen accomplishment....along with the treadmill, the suit tech itself. I was okay with him being a genius at science (loved it even especially the Flash Facts), but even as a Superman fan I drew the line at Super Ventriloquism for Kal El. Sometimes super powers just get so absurd you want them to draw a line.

    So with the boots I had to picture him and Wally shoving those suckers back in with a spoon handle like dealing with overstuffed luggage.

    (Edit: Actually a better example of sheer absurd was the Justice League towing the Earth via Wonder Woman's lasso. Egads.)
    Last edited by Kyer; 05-03-2018 at 01:03 PM.
    Parental care is way exhausting. Gained insight into what my parents went through when I was a baby. Not fun, but what ya gonna do? (Read comics, obviously.)

  10. #100
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post

    But like I said, I can live with that I suppose... but what I would really REALLY love to see killed with fire is the 'Speed Force' concept. That all omnipotent force that has overwhelmed the flash comics for decades now is SOOOO annoying. I HATE it.

    Lightning + Secret mix of Chemicals.... = Flash. No particle accelerators... no speed force choosing him... Certainly no 'he generates it himself and powers everyone else'... No speed force costumes... no speed force prisons and traps... The speed force to me has become the same as the Rainbow Corps... It's the be all and end all explaination for everything.

    If you're going to have 10 speedsters... lets make them unique. Secret mental formulas... hard water chemicals specially treated uniforms... lets mix it up.
    It (the speed force) is a complete load of cobblers. One of the bizarre things about it is that the concept partly created to put a “scientific gloss” on Flash feats breaks all known rules of science. That aspect certainly reached it’s zenith when it was created out of nowhere by Barry.

    But not sure how any writer could get rid of it now...though like you firmly convinced doing so would improve Flash stories.

  11. #101
    Not a member BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Getting rid of the Speed Force at this point is a bad idea, but I do think that it needs clear rules, as well as a difficulty in summoning it/manipulating it, etc.

    Not to mention, everything Johns did to it has to go.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

  12. #102
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    The Speed Force works for me mostly because I think of it as the source of kinetic energy. Things in the universe/multiverse can move because of the Speed Force, while gravity tells something where/how to move.

    I just think of it as a unifying force that we haven't discovered yet. And because it's superheroes, naturally some people are able to tap directly into it and manipulate it the same way comic books manipulate gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong/weak forces.

    Granted, I'm biased. I was just getting into comics around the time when Mark Waid took over the Flash, and Waid's run is what cemented my Flash-fandom, so most of his ideas get a free pass from me.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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  13. #103
    Not a member BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The Speed Force works for me mostly because I think of it as the source of kinetic energy. Things in the universe/multiverse can move because of the Speed Force, while gravity tells something where/how to move.

    I just think of it as a unifying force that we haven't discovered yet. And because it's superheroes, naturally some people are able to tap directly into it and manipulate it the same way comic books manipulate gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong/weak forces.

    Granted, I'm biased. I was just getting into comics around the time when Mark Waid took over the Flash, and Waid's run is what cemented my Flash-fandom, so most of his ideas get a free pass from me.
    I always took it the same way. But lots of writers took it too far (including Waid in his second run: Jai's powers make no sense, as much as I like him).
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

  14. #104
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    It (the speed force) is a complete load of cobblers. One of the bizarre things about it is that the concept partly created to put a “scientific gloss” on Flash feats breaks all known rules of science. That aspect certainly reached it’s zenith when it was created out of nowhere by Barry.

    But not sure how any writer could get rid of it now...though like you firmly convinced doing so would improve Flash stories.
    The easiest way to get rid of it... would be to simply stop mentioning it. Whether there is a speed force... or whether the speed comes from whatever individual origins the heroes have... just stop mentioning the speed force or going into the force or using the force... or studying the speed force...

    For example... in the silver age, the characters never talked about the speed force (as it hadn't been written yet)... but per continuity it was still active back then. It just wasn't the focus of the story.

    There are SOOOO many rogues and concepts and stories that can be told with Barry and the Flash... that leading EVERYTHING back to the same well is old and tired. I mean, superman comics don't go on and on and on and on about yellow solar radiation augmenting his cells or whatever.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyer View Post
    Oh I know. I was referring to the idea of miniaturization tech being another Barry Allen accomplishment....along with the treadmill, the suit tech itself. I was okay with him being a genius at science (loved it even especially the Flash Facts), but even as a Superman fan I drew the line at Super Ventriloquism for Kal El. Sometimes super powers just get so absurd you want them to draw a line.

    I immediately can think of two solutions to that.

    1) He took the tech concept from Thawne like they were toying with in the CW series. Future Tech makes everything just fine...

    or

    2) His buddy Ray Palmer gave him the ring as a gift during one of his first adventures. Shrinking costumes that appear out of nowhere is exactly a thing In current DC time already. That's similar to the way the Reed Richards was making unstable molecule costumes for the X-Men back in the day.

  15. #105
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    Hard water and the Flash ring aren’t exactly the same but they’re connected in being simple hand waves that get the job done without the fuss—it’s up to the reader to unpack how they work.

    Which I like in comics. Less is more. Comics create problems for themselves when they introduce too much explanation. Rather than a radioactive spider, it should be a spider. Leave it open-ended what it was about the freaky spider that sparked Peter’s powers.

    If I’m willing to accept that so many molecules can squeeze inside a ring, then I ought not to question the substantiality of the reduced matter. And I think this kind of thing seems more likely to happen in the near future, for real.

    Speed Force could be explained as a philosophy. The universe does a lot of amazing things, but it’s uninterested in what you call all that. Different fields of study have different labels for the same things in the universe. But the universe isn’t dividing itself up into these segmented concepts.
    🌞 calling occupants of interplanetary craft

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