The Mighty Thor - the Whole Run up to 706 [spoilers]

[LordMikel]

For myself, Aaron's reveal of "Who is Thor" didn't entice me to keep going in the series. I've read Thor for over 15 years and Jane Foster was a character who simply guest starred occasionally. I knew who she was, understood her past, but was very much "eh" about her being Thor. Course I would have been equally unexcited if it had been that annoying SHIELD agent they were teasing.

[brettc1]

Can we not at least discuss characteristics of this specific section of the run then? Even if it isn't Aaron's complete run, the ending of Jane's tenure as Thor marks a clear section of it at least and that section can be analyzed as having it's own themes and traits that one might either like or dislike.

And with that in mind it seems fair to analyze the run's usage of male characters even if this thread doesn't take into account everything that Aaron has done or will do with Thor and Odin. After all the issue isn't just Thor's characterization or Odin's, it's that in this run that ostensibly aims to portray Jane as a worthy and admirable hero, with general female empowerment themes mixed in, it has the notable characteristic of having few if any competent or "good" male characters. Even if Thor and Odin are redeemed as Aaron's run continues and an explanation is given, the fact that this segment of the run has that characteristic can still be argued to undermine the apparent goal of said segment.

The answer to your opening question is - "yes, we can." - in the same way one can discuss the chapter of a book or even a single issue of a comic.

And certainly Odin's status is worthy of discussion. Are the Asgardians going to meekly return to having him as King after their attempted coup a few issues back? Why can't he control the hammer where it's never been a problem before this series started?

I personally an not sold on the concept of the hammer deeming him unworthy because he is convinced of it himself. To me that simply sounds like humility, which is kind of a big thing when you're talking about Thor.

[Ascended]

I accept magic could do anything, it's fiction

But, we can simply apply base logic, jane weilding mjolnir with thors power, is not thor, because thor was still walking around as himself

To this point, I seem to recall a panel early in Jane's tenure where she says.....something......and it comes out sounding very Thor-ish, and she asks herself why she is speaking like that.

I also want to say that there was at least one time where Jane showcases knowledge that she herself says she shouldn't have.

It seems to me that when Jane lifted the hammer, not only was she imbued with Odinson's power, but also a shade of his personality and memory. Obviously it didn't completely overwrite her, but it certainly seems to have influenced her. I don't know why this would happen for Jane but not anyone else who has lifted Mjolnir over the years. I don't even know if Aaron will bother addressing it, as he does seem to play loose with continuity.

As for the Mighty Thor run.....it's hard to judge this solely on its own merits and not be influenced by everything that came before. This story has been a long time in the telling and it isn't even over yet. And while I was no stranger to Thor comics before Aaron, I was far from an expert and many of the great classics I've still yet to read. So I don't worry as much about the changes and twists as the diehards do, and sometimes I don't even recognize them until they're pointed out to me anyway.

That said, I enjoyed this run, as I've enjoyed Aaron's previous Thor work. Yes, it's not without its faults. Jane is without character flaw, virtually every male in the book is worthless, if not a straight up douchebag. And in many ways, and in many places, it was so heavy-handed with its message I suffered blunt-force trauma.

But the overall premise; the worthiness of gods, is interesting. I've enjoyed the war of realms, and I really enjoyed the too-short War Thor story. I even like the new abilities and history behind Mjolnir (I know, I know, I'm a demon). And after giving it some thought, I like that Thor is "Thor" once again, but still unworthy. That'll be a fun dynamic to see in the next series as Thor begins to get his act together.

My biggest gripe is that Jane survived. Reading 705, and then 706, I can only imagine that Aaron's original intent was to let Jane die and leave her in Valhalla, but editorial over-ruled the choice after seeing how popular Jane was becoming. And it really killed the emotional impact for me. I feel like the entire story has less weight and merit to it.

But I'm still greatly looking forward to what comes next. I've been enjoying this run since the start, with God of Thunder and Gor. Aaron hasn't really disappointed me yet (outside of the occasional lackluster issue I suppose).

[brettc1]

To this point, I seem to recall a panel early in Jane's tenure where she says.....something......and it comes out sounding very Thor-ish, and she asks herself why she is speaking like that.

I also want to say that there was at least one time where Jane showcases knowledge that she herself says she shouldn't have.

It seems to me that when Jane lifted the hammer, not only was she imbued with Odinson's power, but also a shade of his personality and memory. Obviously it didn't completely overwrite her, but it certainly seems to have influenced her. I don't know why this would happen for Jane but not anyone else who has lifted Mjolnir over the years. I don't even know if Aaron will bother addressing it, as he does seem to play loose with continuity.

As for the Mighty Thor run.....it's hard to judge this solely on its own merits and not be influenced by everything that came before. This story has been a long time in the telling and it isn't even over yet. And while I was no stranger to Thor comics before Aaron, I was far from an expert and many of the great classics I've still yet to read. So I don't worry as much about the changes and twists as the diehards do, and sometimes I don't even recognize them until they're pointed out to me anyway.

That said, I enjoyed this run, as I've enjoyed Aaron's previous Thor work. Yes, it's not without its faults. Jane is without character flaw, virtually every male in the book is worthless, if not a straight up douchebag. And in many ways, and in many places, it was so heavy-handed with its message I suffered blunt-force trauma.

But the overall premise; the worthiness of gods, is interesting. I've enjoyed the war of realms, and I really enjoyed the too-short War Thor story. I even like the new abilities and history behind Mjolnir (I know, I know, I'm a demon). And after giving it some thought, I like that Thor is "Thor" once again, but still unworthy. That'll be a fun dynamic to see in the next series as Thor begins to get his act together.

My biggest gripe is that Jane survived. Reading 705, and then 706, I can only imagine that Aaron's original intent was to let Jane die and leave her in Valhalla, but editorial over-ruled the choice after seeing how popular Jane was becoming. And it really killed the emotional impact for me. I feel like the entire story has less weight and merit to it.

But I'm still greatly looking forward to what comes next. I've been enjoying this run since the start, with God of Thunder and Gor. Aaron hasn't really disappointed me yet (outside of the occasional lackluster issue I suppose).

I agree with a lot of this. Janes extra knowledge is interesting I agree - I am reminded of the time Thor was the frog of thunder under Simonson and could speak. Simply because, as he pointed out to Loki, the hammer gave him the power of Thor and " ...Thor is not mute." That said, I don't accept the idea that Jane is not running the show or is copiloting with another personality. She maintains all her own knowledge as the thunder God, even directing her own surgery to remove a cursed bullet.

Which reminds me - I don't think it was ever revealed why two SHIELD agents were trying to arrest her because they believed she was Jane Foster. This was well after the end of the Civil War nonsense. What the hell was that?

And yes, I think Jane should have died. Perhaps Editorisl was also worried about a backlash against the character being killed "just because she's a woman".

Amd I still don't get how you use the death of someone's child as a traumatic and defining moment and then never mention it when they themselves are technically dead. That was a complete disconnect for me.

[Ra-El]

One thing that Aaron does, that is pretty smart, is that he let almost every change he does in continuity vague. He retold Mjolnir origin story and changed it, but at the end he also said that was other versions and no way to know the real one. This way of dealing with the history of the universe reminds me of The Sandman, where a lot of things was ambiguous at least at first.

Of course Gaiman was dealing with his own creations and had total freedom to tell whatever story he wanted and was writing that way because was his style, while Aaron, I think, is doing it more so he don't need to mess with continuity and can in case he change his mind change the direction he is going.

Overall The Mighty Thor was good, I didn't like a lot of things that happened on this run and think a lot of the most controversial moments was pretty much Aaron taking a jab on his critics. But he is definitely a very skilled and know how to make his tales feel epic, while I find difficult to connect emotionally with this run, what make a lot moments pack less impact for me.
Honestly, Dauterman is the MVP of this run, his art is what brought me to the run and a lot of times was what made what was a meh issue become something good. Aaron have been very lucky with his run on Thor, first he got Ribic and than Dauterman and Coipel, they all elevated his work a lot, at least in my eyes, I'm curious to see what will be my opinion of his work now, since I don't think Del Mundo is that good.

[JKtheMac]

Can we not at least discuss characteristics of this specific section of the run then? Even if it isn't Aaron's complete run, the ending of Jane's tenure as Thor marks a clear section of it at least and that section can be analyzed as having it's own themes and traits that one might either like or dislike.

And with that in mind it seems fair to analyze the run's usage of male characters even if this thread doesn't take into account everything that Aaron has done or will do with Thor and Odin. After all the issue isn't just Thor's characterization or Odin's, it's that in this run that ostensibly aims to portray Jane as a worthy and admirable hero, with general female empowerment themes mixed in, it has the notable characteristic of having few if any competent or "good" male characters. Even if Thor and Odin are redeemed as Aaron's run continues and an explanation is given, the fact that this segment of the run has that characteristic can still be argued to undermine the apparent goal of said segment.

While I don't agree that there are no competent male characters (especially the villains) or male good characters, I find it more interesting that you would find this challenging. It is clearly intended that the female characters are carrying the baton right now, but to suggest that is somehow a problem is a little odd after decades of the reverse being true.

[kilderkin]

To this point, I seem to recall a panel early in Jane's tenure where she says.....something......and it comes out sounding very Thor-ish, and she asks herself why she is speaking like that.

I also want to say that there was at least one time where Jane showcases knowledge that she herself says she shouldn't have.

It seems to me that when Jane lifted the hammer, not only was she imbued with Odinson's power, but also a shade of his personality and memory. Obviously it didn't completely overwrite her, but it certainly seems to have influenced her. I don't know why this would happen for Jane but not anyone else who has lifted Mjolnir over the years. I don't even know if Aaron will bother addressing it, as he does seem to play loose with continuity.

As for the Mighty Thor run.....it's hard to judge this solely on its own merits and not be influenced by everything that came before. This story has been a long time in the telling and it isn't even over yet. And while I was no stranger to Thor comics before Aaron, I was far from an expert and many of the great classics I've still yet to read. So I don't worry as much about the changes and twists as the diehards do, and sometimes I don't even recognize them until they're pointed out to me anyway.

That said, I enjoyed this run, as I've enjoyed Aaron's previous Thor work. Yes, it's not without its faults. Jane is without character flaw, virtually every male in the book is worthless, if not a straight up douchebag. And in many ways, and in many places, it was so heavy-handed with its message I suffered blunt-force trauma.

But the overall premise; the worthiness of gods, is interesting. I've enjoyed the war of realms, and I really enjoyed the too-short War Thor story. I even like the new abilities and history behind Mjolnir (I know, I know, I'm a demon). And after giving it some thought, I like that Thor is "Thor" once again, but still unworthy. That'll be a fun dynamic to see in the next series as Thor begins to get his act together.

My biggest gripe is that Jane survived. Reading 705, and then 706, I can only imagine that Aaron's original intent was to let Jane die and leave her in Valhalla, but editorial over-ruled the choice after seeing how popular Jane was becoming. And it really killed the emotional impact for me. I feel like the entire story has less weight and merit to it.

But I'm still greatly looking forward to what comes next. I've been enjoying this run since the start, with God of Thunder and Gor. Aaron hasn't really disappointed me yet (outside of the occasional lackluster issue I suppose).

Yeah I recall that ish

That's a good point but all I feel it really proves is that by holding mjolnir you do take on aspects of the storm god, to an extent, but that's still not the same as actually being thor

A poor analogy here

Painting a Ford, Ferrari red don't make it an Enzo, but that's simplistic of me

Or of course it could have been the tempest, Coz iirc eric would give himself away as a fake thor sometimes by his none asgardian speech

I don't think bill ever did that?

[brettc1]

While I don't agree that there are no competent male characters (especially the villains) or male good characters, I find it more interesting that you would find this challenging. It is clearly intended that the female characters are carrying the baton right now, but to suggest that is somehow a problem is a little odd after decades of the reverse being true.

Some folks are thinking that maybe equality is better than equality of discrimination. Just because a female is in the lead does not mean that every male should instantly become hopeless.

For Thor to go from him being a successful hero to failing again and again does not show him in a good light. I mentioned Malekith being competent because the ongoing crisis demands he must be, but that doesn't help the heroes.

[JKtheMac]

Some folks are thinking that maybe equality is better than equality of discrimination. Just because a female is in the lead does not mean that every male should instantly become hopeless.

For Thor to go from him being a successful hero to failing again and again does not show him in a good light. I mentioned Malekith being competent because the ongoing crisis demands he must be, but that doesn't help the heroes.

See another curious thing. Is it actually discrimination?

[Ascended]

I agree with a lot of this. Janes extra knowledge is interesting I agree - I am reminded of the time Thor was the frog of thunder under Simonson and could speak. Simply because, as he pointed out to Loki, the hammer gave him the power of Thor and " ...Thor is not mute." That said, I don't accept the idea that Jane is not running the show or is copiloting with another personality. She maintains all her own knowledge as the thunder God, even directing her own surgery to remove a cursed bullet.

Oh it definitely doesn't overwrite her, but I think it definitely alters her perceptions a little bit. Sort of like.....crap, this is a terrible analogy but it's been a long day and it's finals. I think it's like putting on a pair of sunglasses; you can still see. Your vision is still your's. But everything is tinted and colored a little differently.

I think Jane was still Jane (I mean, of course she was) but there was certainly a little bit of Thor in there too.

Which reminds me - I don't think it was ever revealed why two SHIELD agents were trying to arrest her because they believed she was Jane Foster. This was well after the end of the Civil War nonsense. What the hell was that?

Oh yeah, I forgot about those guys. I liked them, they were fun. I wonder if that's a dropped plot point or if Aaron will pick it back up now that Jane's without a hammer?

And yes, I think Jane should have died. Perhaps Editorisl was also worried about a backlash against the character being killed "just because she's a woman".

It could very well be one of the factors. Though I'd hazard that her success, and the potential to bring her back, ranked higher.

Amd I still don't get how you use the death of someone's child as a traumatic and defining moment and then never mention it when they themselves are technically dead. That was a complete disconnect for me.

.....I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Must be something from the run that has slipped my mind?

[Ascended]

See another curious thing. Is it actually discrimination?

No, but some people would see it that way.

Well....I suppose an argument could be made that it's anti-legacy discrimination. Jane proved popular with fans and accumulated a large amount of merchandise very quickly. She could have very likely continued on as a hero even after Thor returned. Nothing in the rule book that says you can only have one hammer wielding god, after all.

Discrimination against women however.....no.

[JKtheMac]

No, but some people would see it that way.

Well....I suppose an argument could be made that it's anti-legacy discrimination. Jane proved popular with fans and accumulated a large amount of merchandise very quickly. She could have very likely continued on as a hero even after Thor returned. Nothing in the rule book that says you can only have one hammer wielding god, after all.

Discrimination against women however.....no.

How could we meaningfully define something as anti-legacy? And even if we did make up such a term is it about discrimination? Who is being sidelined in the real world? Who is being deprived of equal opportunity or equal rights?

[brettc1]

Oh it definitely doesn't overwrite her, but I think it definitely alters her perceptions a little bit. Sort of like.....crap, this is a terrible analogy but it's been a long day and it's finals. I think it's like putting on a pair of sunglasses; you can still see. Your vision is still your's. But everything is tinted and colored a little differently.

I think Jane was still Jane (I mean, of course she was) but there was certainly a little bit of Thor in there too.



Oh yeah, I forgot about those guys. I liked them, they were fun. I wonder if that's a dropped plot point or if Aaron will pick it back up now that Jane's without a hammer?



It could very well be one of the factors. Though I'd hazard that her success, and the potential to bring her back, ranked higher.



.....I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Must be something from the run that has slipped my mind?

Jane reduced to a sobbing wreck when she learns her child is dead, but never thinks about him when she is.

[JKtheMac]

Jane reduced to a sobbing wreck when she learns her child is dead, but never thinks about him when she is.

And you believe this to an accurate summary of the story? Funny I remember it very differently.

[brettc1]

And you believe this to an accurate summary of the story? Funny I remember it very differently.

I remember what was on the page in 704 and 706. If you can show me something in 706 where she specifically thinks about her lost child, please do so. Because I'm looking at the both issues right now and not seeing anything.