Grail as a villian

[AmiMizuno]

What do you guys think about her? Her origins and her reason for being villains?

[marhawkman]

Needs more personality than being obsessed with Darkseid.

[Sacred Knight]

Her origin is fine. But her characterization since her creation has been fairly one-note. Very one-dimensional right now. I think that can easily be changed, but to be continued there.

[RepHope]

Being the only daughter of Darkseid and an “evil” Amazon is fine. But her personality is totally one-note. She’s evil because Darkseid is her dad. She seems to have no ambitions beyond being his servant. She needs to be an independent agent with her own goal, but I have no idea what such a goal should be.

[marhawkman]

I still like the idea of having a story where Grail is going around hunting gods and runs into Deva. This would not be a coincidence. The idea is that Grail can't really tell the difference between actual gods and other people who are descendants of Cronus. Well... Deva's not a goddess, but she is a descendant of Cronus.

The idea is that this would make Grail reevaluate her life, at least to a small degree. Why? well, the idea in my head had Deva sucker punch Grail. Grail sees Deva and gets confused because she doesn't recognize her, even though she senses she's an Olympian. Deva introduces herself in much the same way she introduced herself to Wonder Woman.

[Badou]

Only thing interesting with her was her dynamic with her mother and her mother trying to guide this child that is clearly evil from being like Darkseid. She is just a one note generic evil Darkseid henchman now.

[Mel Dyer]

Only thing interesting with her was her dynamic with her mother and her mother trying to guide this child that is clearly evil from being like Darkseid. She is just a one note generic evil Darkseid henchman now.

That is so painful to read, but, it's totally true. It really is.

Grail, who wants to lobotomize and enslave all sentient life in the cosmos, is basically Eviless-reloaded, right down to her subordination to a male co-villain. For Eviless, that was Mephisto Saturno; for Grail, it's Darkseid. Unfortunately, Grail's purpose, as a living vessel for the AE, is often left on the doorstep, in the rain, ..while her relationship to Papiseid defines her.

Presently, she has no real purpose, except playing Oilcan Harry to Diana's Mighty Mouse. I'm waiting for the issue, where she ties Diana to the railroad tracks, twirling her moustache or Mohawk hairs, as she tightens all the knots. It's kinda' sad.

To my good friend, Mizuno...I think Grail needs an agenda that distinguishes her from Darkseid AND some clarity of purpose.

[SiegePerilous02]

Generic and bland. We got an issue focused on her and her perspective, and she still doesn't have a personality. Her origin is pretty lousy too, just an evil version of Diana's birth. The goal to make her an arch nemesis, if that's what they desired, flopped because that type of "black mirror" approach is way too on the nose. Cheetah and Circe are able to do it while still having their own unique flourishes. There's also the fact that she's the daughter and extension of a villain who will ALWAYS be bigger than she will ever be. Seriously, Wonder Woman deserves better for a major villain than "mook of Darkseid, who is not and never will be part of Wonder Woman lore, and who's role could be easily filled by the Female Furies or Kalibak."

[Mel Dyer]

Generic and bland. We got an issue focused on her and her perspective, and she still doesn't have a personality. Her origin is pretty lousy too, just an evil version of Diana's birth. The goal to make her an arch nemesis, if that's what they desired, flopped because that type of "black mirror" approach is way too on the nose. Cheetah and Circe are able to do it while still having their own unique flourishes. There's also the fact that she's the daughter and extension of a villain who will ALWAYS be bigger than she will ever be. Seriously, Wonder Woman deserves better for a major villain than "mook of Darkseid, who is not and never will be part of Wonder Woman lore, and who's role could be easily filled by the Female Furies or Kalibak."

I think you make a GREAT case for bringing back the Ares-powered Silver Swan, who was everything Grail was, but, more original...better.

Cheetah could be every bit, the perfect nemesis for Diana. If some genius writer would give us a Cheetah, in which Barbara Minerva was the real monster, ..and the cheetah-power was just a weapon, with which to subjugate her foes, ..that might be a step in the right direction. Presently, Grail and Cheetah have the same problem, in that neither has a clear, easily identifiable purpose or agenda - certainly, not as clear as Luthor's or Doctor Doom's. In superhero comics, these things have to be clear and plain.

What does Grail want...a bigger plasma TV? What the hell is she running around with Darkseid for? WHAT does she want? We should know this, like the back of our hand, by now, ..and we don't.

[WonderScott]

She had a promising debut in Darkseid War, but she's been a let down since the resolution of that story.

She should be a Justice League-level as well as Wonder Woman adversary, but has resulted in a milquetoast, unremarkable character in Robinson's story. She had the potential to add something new to the New Gods and Apokolips narrative too, as an outlier, but has been portrayed as nothing but a lackey for Darkseid (and now I'm afraid the same thing may happen with Ares - we'll see.)

Grail deserves better. Hopefully some creator will come along and help the character live up to her potential.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think you make a GREAT case for bringing back the Ares-powered Silver Swan, who was everything Grail was, but, more original...better.

Cheetah could be every bit, the perfect nemesis for Diana. If some genius writer would give us a Cheetah, in which Barbara Minerva was the real monster, ..and the cheetah-power was just a weapon, with which to subjugate her foes, ..that might be a step in the right direction. Presently, Grail and Cheetah have the same problem, in that neither has a clear, easily identifiable purpose or agenda - certainly, not as clear as Luthor's or Doctor Doom's. In superhero comics, these things have to be clear and plain.

What does Grail want...a bigger plasma TV? What the hell is she running around with Darkseid for? WHAT does she want? We should know this, like the back of our hand, by now, ..and we don't.

We already had a take with Barbara as the monster and not the Cheetah, and it fizzled out very quickly. She has a reason to hate Diana and the Gods now, and a stated mission goal of taking out her wrath on the Olympians and Amazons. As it stands now, she's nothing like Grail. She is actually a well defined and layered character, whereas Grail is anything but.

[Korath]

Have Ares reveal to Grail that her mother is in Tartarus, forever punished for giving birth to her, while the half-goddess realize that her father doesn't care about her beyond adding another powerful servant to do his will. She then decides that she want her mother back. Because she want it out of her twisted version of love, she can escape from her prison.

Once in the outside world she begin a campaing of murders and sacrifices to summon back Myrina's soul into the world of the living. Of course, Diana prevents her for doing so, because the means are evil, but she still struggle with the dilemna that Grail really love her mother and that Myrina could be reigning in her daugther. From that point onward, Grail decides to oppose Diana's brand of love and compassion by promoting her own version of love (do whatever you want to be with the ones you love, consequences and morality be damned). It would allow her to work well alongside Cheetah and Silver Swan

[marhawkman]

Yeah, Grail needs more explanation of her goals. WHY is she so eager to serve Darkseid? It comes across the same as people who live on Apokalips. did her father somehow subjugate her will as a child?

The main thing I find interesting about Grail and think needs more development is how she interacts with Diana's other rogues. Like I said above, I imagine that Deva would want to meet her fist to face. The others? Well, anyone associated with any pantheon on Earth would probably be Grail's enemy.

[The Dying Detective]

If anyone recalls the reason why Grail is so eager to serve Darkseid might stem from Robinson's poor interpretation of how Darkseid War ended with her wanting to learn to love her father and the Rebirth one-shot highlighted this.

[Koriand'r]

The thing I found most interesting about Myrina Black, Grail's mother, is that due to her battles with the Red Panzer and Minister Blizzard she was in her own way, sort of, the first Wonder Woman.

WW Myrina Black costume.jpg

Now that Grail is under the influence of Ares, hopefully she'll forsake her New God heritage for her Amazonian ties and like her mother become her own twisted reflection of Wonder Woman.