Grail as a villian

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I honestly don't get why people try to draw the conclusion that the New Gods are supposed to be more powerful than the old gods. By the 'because its new' logic, Wonder Woman should be far weaker than Donna and Cassie. Aside from Darkseid whose established to be the embodiment of all evil in the universe, Metron who has a fancy magic chair, and Highfather whose the Source pope, the other New Gods are all beings lacking in invulnerability who can be killed with ordinary mundane bullets, kitchen knives, and can die without air or food.
Keep in mind that all of those starving serfs on Apokolips and even the parademons are supposed to be new gods and those things drop like flies. Most of them don't even have powers beyond being especially strong and capable of healing from injuries.

Comparativly the Greek gods all have special powers from changing shape to commanding elements to commanding souls of the dead.

[Agent Z]

I honestly don't get why people try to draw the conclusion that the New Gods are supposed to be more powerful than the old gods. By the 'because its new' logic, Wonder Woman should be far weaker than Donna and Cassie. Aside from Darkseid whose established to be the embodiment of all evil in the universe, Metron who has a fancy magic chair, and Highfather whose the Source pope, the other New Gods are all beings lacking in invulnerability who can be killed with ordinary mundane bullets, kitchen knives, and can die without air or food.
Keep in mind that all of those starving serfs on Apokolips and even the parademons are supposed to be new gods and those things drop like flies. Most of them don't even have powers beyond being especially strong and capable of healing from injuries.

Comparativly the Greek gods all have special powers from changing shape to commanding elements to commanding souls of the dead.

There's also Lightray who has the power of light and super speed, Mantis who can drain energy from anything, Granny Goodness who trained the Furies and single-handedly defeated the entire Olympus Twelve, Big Barda who has physical stats comparable if not equal to Superman and Wonder Woman, Steppenwolf who killed a version of Wonder Woman, the Parademons who have been shown to give Superman trouble and others.

I don't believe the serfs are supposed to be New Gods just denizens of Apokolips.

[AmiMizuno]

What is the best way to make sure Grail is a good Wonder Woman villain?

[Vordan]

I honestly don't get why people try to draw the conclusion that the New Gods are supposed to be more powerful than the old gods. By the 'because its new' logic, Wonder Woman should be far weaker than Donna and Cassie. Aside from Darkseid whose established to be the embodiment of all evil in the universe, Metron who has a fancy magic chair, and Highfather whose the Source pope, the other New Gods are all beings lacking in invulnerability who can be killed with ordinary mundane bullets, kitchen knives, and can die without air or food.
Keep in mind that all of those starving serfs on Apokolips and even the parademons are supposed to be new gods and those things drop like flies. Most of them don't even have powers beyond being especially strong and capable of healing from injuries.

Comparativly the Greek gods all have special powers from changing shape to commanding elements to commanding souls of the dead.

Because Morrison and Johns made them multiversal Gods compared to the Old Gods who were/are universal Gods. Apokolips and New Genesis get their own places in the Sphere of the Gods, which otherwise only the Judeo-Christian God gets with Heaven/The Silver City. The other Old Gods have to share a spot.

[WonderScott]

Because Morrison and Johns made them multiversal Gods compared to the Old Gods who were/are universal Gods. Apokolips and New Genesis get their own places in the Sphere of the Gods, which otherwise only the Judeo-Christian God gets with Heaven/The Silver City. The other Old Gods have to share a spot.

Bingo. This was the status quo presented in the DCnU, but it feels largely abandoned after the Darkseid War and Darkseid/Grail/Diana/Jason storyline in Wonder Woman. I mean Darkseid was feasting on Zeus and Heracles of Prime Earth, but not hopping around to the other multiverse Earths to consume their chief sky gods and demigod heroic champions? That just doesn't make sense or is well thought/planned out editorially. Maybe it's a Rebirth or Doctor Manhattan thing.

(I explain/blame everything via Doctor Manhattan these days.) :: shrugs shoulders::

[WonderScott]

What is the best way to make sure Grail is a good Wonder Woman villain?

Some creativity and time spent fleshing out and deepening her character traits and motivations as child of the Amazons and as a member of the royal house of Apokolips and as a demigod herself.

Her time spent in Wonder Woman recently flew in the face of her motivations during Darkseid War, so it's time for someone who actually cares about the potential of the character to develop a more resonant reason(s) for her existence and opposition to Diana, the Amazons, Darkseid, Apokolips, or whoever they can come up with that makes sense and excites me about the character again.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

What is the best way to make sure Grail is a good Wonder Woman villain?

Hmm....Well to start with I might find her somewhat enjoyable if they dropped everything New God related about her and never mentioned it again. Or failing that go the opposite direction and toss in her identical brother Grayven and have them constantly copying eachother since Grail is little more than a knockoff of him.

Failing that, while I don't like Grail one bit, I found Myrina Black (Grails mother) to honestly be a fascinating character who adds some interesting possibilities to Wonder Womans mythos. If we can't get Myrina back (and I really would prefer to have her back) having Grail take up her mothers crusade, reclaim her moms Amazon-cave for her own and Myrinas pet griffin, it could make Grail more interesting to try and have her make an effort to live up to her mothers legacy.

As it is, shes the least interesting child of Darkseid and doesn't offer anything of note that other New Gods characters don't do better.

[marhawkman]

What is the best way to make sure Grail is a good Wonder Woman villain?

Define her goals and motives in a way that isn't entirely focused on Darkseid. The personal fixation on Darkseid isn't bad in and of itself, but it doesn't need to be an IMMEDIATE goal.

[AmiMizuno]

I hope with Graol back it might be good change. I hope they aren’t going to try to make grail Diana’s archenemy.

[WonderScott]

I hope with Graol back it might be good change. I hope they aren’t going to try to make grail Diana’s archenemy.

Based on what Wonder Woman symbolizes, I question the need for her to have a single archenemy. I guess you can always go diametrically with peace/love to Ares' war/hate, but I tend to think of her a bbit roader than that or than the others in the Trinity that can get away with simply order/chaos for Batman and Joker or man and superman for Luthor and Superman. Diana has much more nuance than that and maybe doesn't, by nature, need to thematically be opposed by a single opponent to "sum her up."

[AmiMizuno]

True. I mean there are main villains that can be summarize of siffeeent parts of Diana.

Ares,Cheetah, and Circe are generally the three villains that are opposite of Diana

[Fuzzy Mittens]

The thing is that arch nemesis is simply the villain that most often gets associated with the hero the most and is considered the one who best symbolizes a counterpoint to them. For Wonder Woman Ares and Cheetah are generally the two most commonly referred to. And Cheetah until very recently hasn't had a strong motive for that.
Having multiple arch nemesis isn't that uncommon. You will find a number of people who would argue that Doctor Octopus is Spider-mans arch nemesis over the Green Goblin for example.

But the big name heroes tend to have their own 'A list villains' who were designed to be dynamically opposed to some aspect of the hero. Be it as a dark reflection or being better than the hero in a specific aspect of their character.
For Superman you have Lex Luthor with his disbelief in selflessness but you also have Brainiac a truly alien entity that is supposed to be worlds beyond Superman. You also have Zod who is a dark mirror of Superman. You have Bizarro the other dark mirror of Superman. You have Metallo and Cyborg Superman, men of literal steel.

Wonder Woman has this too with her rogues gallery. Queen Clea, Circe, Baroness, Ares, Cheetah, Circe, Devestation, Genocide, Giganta, Doctor Poison, Doctor Psycho, Silver Swan, Giganta, Duke of Deception. Wonder Woman has many villains who in their own ways symbolize and act in opposition of core aspects of Wonder Woman as a character . This makes them great villains.

But that doesn't necessarily mean they are 'arch villains' That title to put it simply, is just given to what villain you see the hero fight the most often. Honestly Ras Al'Guul and Bane are much more dangerous than the Joker can ever hope to be. They also better work as opposites of the hero. But that means nothing in the face of Joker being viewed as THE villain people associate with Batman thanks to a combination of him showing up most often in popular media and writers making the most use of him because of it.

[Vordan]

Most people would say Cheetah is her arch nemesis, but that’s because it’s the only villain they know of. I would say an arch nemesis needs a personal and ideological reason to oppose the hero. Joker represents chaos but he also wants to break Batman to prove that everyone is just as ugly as him deep down, because then it means he’s not weak. Lex opposes Supes because he fears Supes power and perceived him as limiting humanity. He also covers that power for himself and hates Clark for getting in his way all the time.

Cheetah hating the Gods is a good start since Diana is typically portrayed as being religious and respectful of deities. Keep building on that and I’d say she could definitely hold the archenemy title.