Grail as a villian

[Sacred Knight]

The better question might be if Grail is worth salvaging, and right now I think the answer is no. Diana has no lack of mythological high-end enemies, and Grail also ties into lots of assumptions about Amazon society that many fans find troublesome. She also comes out of specific demands for a larger story arc not tied to Diana, which is not necessarily a good fit for good antagonists.

I'd much rather that effort in the near and medium term was spent into bringing back Doctor Poison (as a proper mad scientist, not the tacticool mercenary that Rucka created), Doctor Psycho, Giganta, and some of the other more mundane antagonists of Diana.

If that's the question then to me the answer is yes. A solid rogue's gallery for any superhero is a positive, so in my mind its worth taking anyone not popular/new/whatever and making it work. If someone had an idea to actually make Egg Fu work I'd take it on those same grounds. There's no such thing as too many rogues.

[kjn]

If that's the question then to me the answer is yes. A solid rogue's gallery for any superhero is a positive, so in my mind its worth taking anyone not popular/new/whatever and making it work. If someone had an idea to actually make Egg Fu work I'd take it on those same grounds. There's no such thing as too many rogues.

Though quantity has a quality of its own, it need not necessarily be so in storytelling. I'd be more interested in developing fewer but better villains than picking up everything in sight. Grail also has roots that hit some very un-Wonder Woman-like parts of her current background, and is tied to story elements that doesn't seem very popular. In these cases it might be better to pick up older villains with no such negative associations, and then try to rehabilitate Grail later on with a new form of backstory.

Also, as imagined, Grail was set up to be a villain with global or even cosmic reach. Such tends to be less useful from a story-telling perspective than villains with a smaller reach. Villains like Doctor Poison or Giganta or Blue Snowman can be put into a greater variety of stories without having them dominate the narrative, and can also be used as opponents against other heroes (Doctor Poison should eg be an excellent adversary in a Batman story).

[Vordan]

Though quantity has a quality of its own, it need not necessarily be so in storytelling. I'd be more interested in developing fewer but better villains than picking up everything in sight. Grail also has roots that hit some very un-Wonder Woman-like parts of her current background, and is tied to story elements that doesn't seem very popular. In these cases it might be better to pick up older villains with no such negative associations, and then try to rehabilitate Grail later on with a new form of backstory.

Also, as imagined, Grail was set up to be a villain with global or even cosmic reach. Such tends to be less useful from a story-telling perspective than villains with a smaller reach. Villains like Doctor Poison or Giganta or Blue Snowman can be put into a greater variety of stories without having them dominate the narrative, and can also be used as opponents against other heroes (Doctor Poison should eg be an excellent adversary in a Batman story).

Darkseid War was and is very popular from what I've seen, and so is Johns run as a whole, despite what online forms would tell you. Grail's backstory isn't really holding her back. It's her lack of a motivation that's compelling, as well as her characterization under Robinson being a complete 180 from what she was under Johns. I also disagree about her power levels. You need a wide range of rogues to build a compelling gallery. Look at Batman. He's got low level serial murderers like Zsaaz as well as global masterminds like Ra's. Supes has guys like Brainiac or Mongul as well as guys like Toyman, or the new Bendis' villain, Red Cloud. Variety is the spice of villainy.

However I do agree that I'd rather see Diana's traditional rogues get "Rebirthed" first. Let's put some distance between Robinson's run. However Grail's already set to pop back up in "Just War" so we'll see how Wilson does.

[Armor of God]

Actually her backstory is holding her back. We never saw how Myrina and Darkseid got together. We never saw why Myrina hated Darkseid. Then Anti-Monitor enters the picture, then his backstory is retconned and then Anti-Life is retconned and... its all a mess really. Wonder Woman already has Ares for the epic scope villain and Genocide for the dark twin. Grails asset is only being Darkseid's daughter which ironically is also her biggest liability.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

I just hope that they give up this ridiculous 'Grail is her arch nemesis' notion. Geoff Johns also made Ulysses a flying brick counterpart to Superman. I don't see people bending over backwards to insist that baddie gets top billing over the likes of Brainiac, Lex Luthor, and Zod.

[Armor of God]

She might mean something if it wasn't for the fact that writers who don't worship Jack Kirby freely have Batman, Harley Quinn, and Superman single handedly defeat everyone worth mentioning on Apokolips single handed and writers who do love the Jack Kirby stuff traditionaly don't use the new material that other writers come up with.

Heck, trying to tie Wonder Woman to the new gods at all is fraught with problems when writers like to play up the new gods as being these all powerful figures with Granny Goodness single handedly defeating and capturing all the Olympians in Amazons yet Steve Trevors able to defeat and capture the Female Furies with hardly any effort.

As it is, we have a character who was supposed to have been born thousands of years ago the same day as Diana and raised by Myrina Black (whose a more interesting character in every possible way.) To be good and not evil despite her heritage and to destroy Darkseid at any cost. With Myrina dying and Grail adopting Darkseid and declaring she would try and do what her mother did and raise baby Darkseid to be good.

One Robinson later and we have Grail as a simpering toady for Darkseid who does whatever he wishes in order to restore him to power, with nothing about Grail showing any actual capability or honestly anything that makes her seem particularly dangerous.

Perhaps someone could salvage Grail and remove the foul taste left by Robinson but even before then she was far less interesting than other evil counterparts like Devestation, Genocide, Queen Clea of Venturia, or the Baroness. I'll grant that she is more interesting than First Born, but thats a low hurdle to jump.

On the other hand, its not like other superheroes have a shortage of dark mirrors. How many Batman villains are there who have dead parents and are supposed to be super smart martial artists? How many of Supermans enemies are flying bricks who are supposed to be his dark reflection?

There is a difference. Batman, Harley and Superman are mega popular characters in their own right and they're not New God characters. Grail is a New Gods character but one that New Gods writers will never truly acknowledge. Remember Takion? Stayne? Grayven? Deathspawn? Those Furies from Worlds End?

[Fuzzy Mittens]

There is a difference. Batman, Harley and Superman are mega popular characters in their own right and they're not New God characters. Grail is a New Gods character but one that New Gods writers will never truly acknowledge. Remember Takion? Stayne? Grayven? Deathspawn? Those Furies from Worlds End?

Oh wow. XD
Looking that up, the only ones I remember ever even seeing are those worlds end bugger deathspawn and furies who are just forgetable unless im reminded of them. ^^;
But wow...Grayven sounds like essentially a slightly more competent Grail. XD Finding out he exists kinda makes Grail redundant.

[marhawkman]

The better question might be if Grail is worth salvaging, and right now I think the answer is no. Diana has no lack of mythological high-end enemies, and Grail also ties into lots of assumptions about Amazon society that many fans find troublesome. She also comes out of specific demands for a larger story arc not tied to Diana, which is not necessarily a good fit for good antagonists.

I'd much rather that effort in the near and medium term was spent into bringing back Doctor Poison (as a proper mad scientist, not the tacticool mercenary that Rucka created), Doctor Psycho, Giganta, and some of the other more mundane antagonists of Diana.

I still wanna see Grail fight Devastation.

[Vordan]

Actually her backstory is holding her back. We never saw how Myrina and Darkseid got together. We never saw why Myrina hated Darkseid. Then Anti-Monitor enters the picture, then his backstory is retconned and then Anti-Life is retconned and... its all a mess really. Wonder Woman already has Ares for the epic scope villain and Genocide for the dark twin. Grails asset is only being Darkseid's daughter which ironically is also her biggest liability.

Genocide is pretty terrible in her own right. That’s the one who was supposed to WW’s Doomsday right?

[Koriand'r]

I don't know why people on youtube can't pronounce "Hippolyta" correctly, but it's hard to argue against Grail's viability after watching this video.

[Armor of God]

Oh wow. XD
Looking that up, the only ones I remember ever even seeing are those worlds end bugger deathspawn and furies who are just forgetable unless im reminded of them. ^^;
But wow...Grayven sounds like essentially a slightly more competent Grail. XD Finding out he exists kinda makes Grail redundant.

Exactly, Grail is just genderbent Grayven. Their powers and appearence are the same which makes them both terribly unoriginal as Kalibak and Orion atleast have their own unique visuals and powers that have nothing to do with aping Darkseid. Hell Grayven teamed up with Brainiac to kill Darkseid while Grail repeated that basic plot except she teamed up with Anti-Monitor. Their names sound similar as well.

[Armor of God]

Genocide is pretty terrible in her own right. That’s the one who was supposed to WW’s Doomsday right?

Yeah but atleast she isn't tied to another franchise.

[WonderScott]

I still like Grail's design, character, and ties to the Amazons and New Gods in concept, but it's going to take someone to apply more creativity to all that wonderful backstory than Robinson did to make her viable and interesting.

There are so many connections and interesting things you could do with involving Diana, Grail, the Olympians, the Apokoliptans, and Diana's more earthbound and un-godly villains and adversaries given the right time and talent.

Instead we got a lukewarm Jason and Darkseid story.

[WonderScott]

=w= Double Post =w=

[marhawkman]

I still like Grail's design, character, and ties to the Amazons and New Gods in concept, but it's going to take someone to apply more creativity to all that wonderful backstory than Robinson did to make her viable and interesting.

There are so many connections and interesting things you could do with involving Diana, Grail, the Olympians, the Apokoliptans, and Diana's more earthbound and un-godly villains and adversaries given the right time and talent.

Instead we got a lukewarm Jason and Darkseid story.

Yeah, Grail hates Old Gods. Thus pretty much every character affiliated with the Old Gods (to include Deva) is her enemy by definition.