Grail as a villian

[AmiMizuno]

One thing that bugs me is that many times DC trying to give Diana her own Doomdays day or something other character like that has backfired many times. Are the new gods really tired to Olympians? I haven't really paid too much attention to them. I always thought the two groups were different groups with no connections. I don't know Grail didn't have to be connected through blood. It can work but with Diana it might be a while.

[WonderScott]

One thing that bugs me is that many times DC trying to give Diana her own Doomdays day or something other character like that has backfired many times. Are the new gods really tired to Olympians? I haven't really paid too much attention to them. I always thought the two groups were different groups with no connections. I don't know Grail didn't have to be connected through blood. It can work but with Diana it might be a while.

Diana's had ample opportunities for a Bizarro or Doomsday with Devastation and Genocide, but with Grail I can see a character that might expand the Wonderverse a bit more given her heritage and the nature of the Olympians and New Gods.

Darkseid has mostly been obsessed with the "Kryptonian" in the past, but Diana's heritage is just as interesting a lens to look at the New Gods with as is Superman's. It definitely hasn't reached its promise though, with the exception of Jimenez's OWAW story where Diana takes on Darkseid.

[Fuzzy Mittens]

One thing that bugs me is that many times DC trying to give Diana her own Doomdays day or something other character like that has backfired many times. Are the new gods really tired to Olympians? I haven't really paid too much attention to them. I always thought the two groups were different groups with no connections. I don't know Grail didn't have to be connected through blood. It can work but with Diana it might be a while.

It depends on what canon your going by because DC has never really ironed one out or picked one they were satisfied with. More 'writers can do what they like'
If you go by the lazy one alot of writers use, the gods are all powered by belief and their born of belief and will die without people praying to them and are empowered by people praying to them. This was even used with Darkseid at one point.

If you go by the other origin that writers like, the gods are elemental beings who not only are the gods of things like war and wisdom but are the elementals of those forces. This is classically the interpretation used for why Ares is so powerful and what his end goal tends to be.

And if you go by the Jack Kirbys new gods mythos, all the greek gods, asgardians and such are supposed to already be dead with the new gods as their decendants. For he had this idea that the new gods were the fourth world (forth generation of gods) That the first world, second world, and third worlds of gods had already ended, for the whole thing was a cycle and every god who died would be returned to the source wall. However for obvious reasons this idea doesn't play well with others. Also I dimly recall Morrison set things up so we should be in the fifth world at the moment.

Honestly trying to connect Wonder Woman and the greek gods to the new gods stuff is kinda weird when most new gods can be killed with an ordinary knife in the ribs.

[Agent Z]

Honestly, the New Gods have suffered mainly from having their franchise get carved up as fodder for the rest of the DCU. Superman and Wonder Woman have enough villains in their rogues galleries without having to poach from the Fourth World.

[AmiMizuno]

This is why I think having Grail is really kind of weird. It feels like they are trying to put Superman's villains into Wonder Woman. Why couldn't Grail be her own thing?

[Vordan]

Honestly, the New Gods have suffered mainly from having their franchise get carved up as fodder for the rest of the DCU. Superman and Wonder Woman have enough villains in their rogues galleries without having to poach from the Fourth World.

To be fair, Supes ties to the New Gods goes all the way back to Kirby himself. But I will agree that the constant jobbing of Darkseid and the sidelining of New Genesis and Orion left a bad taste in my mouth.

[marhawkman]

Diana's had ample opportunities for a Bizarro or Doomsday with Devastation and Genocide, but with Grail I can see a character that might expand the Wonderverse a bit more given her heritage and the nature of the Olympians and New Gods.

Darkseid has mostly been obsessed with the "Kryptonian" in the past, but Diana's heritage is just as interesting a lens to look at the New Gods with as is Superman's. It definitely hasn't reached its promise though, with the exception of Jimenez's OWAW story where Diana takes on Darkseid.

Ah, but WHY is Darkseid obsessed with Kryptonians? Short version: they're a mortal race with the strength to challenge gods.

WW's powers come from the old gods. IE beings Darkseid sees as inferior to him. So while Darkseid has no reason to want to fight her, she has reason to want to fight him.

Deva is a creation of the precursors to the old gods. So the New Gods see her as an antiquated throwback, despite the fact she's more than strong enough to kick their butts.

[WonderScott]

Honestly, the New Gods have suffered mainly from having their franchise get carved up as fodder for the rest of the DCU. Superman and Wonder Woman have enough villains in their rogues galleries without having to poach from the Fourth World.

I hear what you're saying, but I'd add it's also because the New Gods and their nature and abilities have been incredibly, and sadly, ill-defined by DC. On one hand they're said to be incredibly powerful and, at times, a singularity in the multiverse and can stand toe-to-toe with Superman, but on the other hand they show up at times and get jobbed by characters like Lois Lane and Steve Trevor.

To me, if DC wants to see the concept of the New Gods work in the current DCU, and not just give them legendary props because they're Kirby creations, they need to put the work in to make them worthy of legacy. That means defining and developing them and their concepts better for right now, and not riding the coattails of what they once were and symbolized decades ago.

They're interesting characters to me, especially the Apokoliptans, but their inconsistencies when appearing in stories doesn't do them justice. I respect and appreciate what Kirby created, but the characters need work and new development if they're going to be ongoing factions in the DCU. And that can't be lip service. :: shrugs shoulders ::

But I agree, especially in the care of Wonder Woman, that she has a deep bench of enemies and adversaries that have been ignored in favor of the New Gods - and that's a shame.

[Agent Z]

Ah, but WHY is Darkseid obsessed with Kryptonians? Short version: they're a mortal race with the strength to challenge gods.

WW's powers come from the old gods. IE beings Darkseid sees as inferior to him. So while Darkseid has no reason to want to fight her, she has reason to want to fight him.

Deva is a creation of the precursors to the old gods. So the New Gods see her as an antiquated throwback, despite the fact she's more than strong enough to kick their butts.

If Diana is going to be fighting Darkseid it's because he's trying to enslave the entire universe not because of some divine pissing contest.

[WonderScott]

This is why I think having Grail is really kind of weird. It feels like they are trying to put Superman's villains into Wonder Woman. Why couldn't Grail be her own thing?

Interesting that I know longer think of them as Superman villains, as much as DCU villains, given Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and even Batman's adventures with them over the recent years. And I'm okay with that as they're "big enough" characters and a concept to affect multiple DCU characters, despite getting their DCU start with Jimmy Olsen and Superman comics.

I don't even mind new additions to the New Gods, whether Grayvn or Grail. There's room for all in the godly and cosmic soap operas the cause...but as I mentioned in the post above, I think it would make them a much better threat or comrades if they, their powers, their nature, their abilities, their pantheon, etc. as deities were better defined and then editorially maintained in appearance. It'll help them resonate and be perceived better, IMHO.

[WonderScott]

Ah, but WHY is Darkseid obsessed with Kryptonians? Short version: they're a mortal race with the strength to challenge gods.

WW's powers come from the old gods. IE beings Darkseid sees as inferior to him. So while Darkseid has no reason to want to fight her, she has reason to want to fight him.

Deva is a creation of the precursors to the old gods. So the New Gods see her as an antiquated throwback, despite the fact she's more than strong enough to kick their butts.

Exactly, this is one aspect of exploring them outside the Kryptonian dynamic that might be an interesting Boom Tube to "boom" through if they were used more strategically and creatively in the DCU. I'm not saying they'd all be winners, but I can think of a handful of ways to explore their nature and thematically tell stories with them with other characters in the DCU.

It's time for the New Gods to have a Rebirth of sorts.

[Agent Z]

I hear what you're saying, but I'd add it's also because the New Gods and their nature and abilities have been incredibly, and sadly, ill-defined by DC. On one hand they're said to be incredibly powerful and, at times, a singularity in the multiverse and can stand toe-to-toe with Superman, but on the other hand they show up at times and get jobbed by characters like Lois Lane and Steve Trevor.

To me, if DC wants to see the concept of the New Gods work in the current DCU, and not just give them legendary props because they're Kirby creations, they need to put the work in to make them worthy of legacy. That means defining and developing them and their concepts better for right now, and not riding the coattails of what they once were and symbolized decades ago.

They're interesting characters to me, especially the Apokoliptans, but their inconsistencies when appearing in stories doesn't do them justice. I respect and appreciate what Kirby created, but the characters need work and new development if they're going to be ongoing factions in the DCU. And that can't be lip service. :: shrugs shoulders ::

But I agree, especially in the care of Wonder Woman, that she has a deep bench of enemies and adversaries that have been ignored in favor of the New Gods - and that's a shame.

I get what you're saying but for that to happen, the New Gods need to be seen as their own characters first and foremost. Which has not been the case since the 80s. This problem has only exacerbated by crappy stories like the New 52 Justice League and Darkseid War. Develop the New Gods' corner of the universe to make them good characters again.

[WonderScott]

I get what you're saying but for that to happen, the New Gods need to be seen as their own characters first and foremost. Which has not been the case since the 80s. This problem has only exacerbated by crappy stories like the New 52 Justice League and Darkseid War. Develop the New Gods' corner of the universe to make them good characters again.

And that's something they should consider making happen to make them viable in the comic books.

I'm not sure we'll see it or how that'll work out until we get DC and Ava DuVernay's creative take on the property for the cinematic film. Similarly to Wonder Woman and Aquaman, I assume aspects of the film's creative take will blend into the comics versions.

[WonderScott]

I get what you're saying but for that to happen, the New Gods need to be seen as their own characters first and foremost. Which has not been the case since the 80s. This problem has only exacerbated by crappy stories like the New 52 Justice League and Darkseid War. Develop the New Gods' corner of the universe to make them good characters again.

Oddly, I thought Johns/Fabok's take on Lashina, Kanto, Kalibak, etc. at least had the beginnings of being interesting and formidable at the outset of the Darkseid War story, but there really wasn't much follow through for any of the characters besides appearances and a little fighting in comparison to Grail and Darkseid.

[marhawkman]

Exactly, this is one aspect of exploring them outside the Kryptonian dynamic that might be an interesting Boom Tube to "boom" through if they were used more strategically and creatively in the DCU. I'm not saying they'd all be winners, but I can think of a handful of ways to explore their nature and thematically tell stories with them with other characters in the DCU.

It's time for the New Gods to have a Rebirth of sorts.

Yeah, For a guy with an ARMY of superpowered minion, you see Darkseid himself, much more than his minions. Which is actually a GOOD thing in the use of Grail. She's NOT Darkseid, she's arguably less powerful so her presence in a story doesn't have the same level of consequences. Thus it can be a smaller more personal story.