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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    If it's not the true, original members of the JSA at the heart/history of the team, it all depends on how far off they've veered for whatever version they put out there. If there are legitimate reasons for changes (i.e. when Crisis on Infinite Earths wound up removing Batman and Superman from their origin), it's one thing. If changes are done that would have not necessarily made sense back in the 1940s (like changing the original members to be more politically correct from a 21st century stand point), I'm less likely to accept crap like that.
    Applying 21st century diversity to the JSA would be foolish IMHO. Where the JLA's origin is moving up through time and the white boys club that ruled in the late 50s isn't in place "10 or 15 years prior with the floating timeline then doing something like using Cyborg makes sense. But these were the early 40s when it was white straight guys and the girl.

    I hope a lot of the original JSA stuff is kept somehow even if it's hopelessly dated as regards diversity.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post

    I hope a lot of the original JSA stuff is kept somehow even if it's hopelessly dated as regards diversity.
    It's possible to pick and edit from the past without making it a totally white boys club (albeit being a mostly wbc) , but you'd have to edit out some whites (at least for the founding of the JSA) ....

  3. #153
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by philosopop View Post
    It's possible to pick and edit from the past without making it a totally white boys club (albeit being a mostly wbc) , but you'd have to edit out some whites (at least for the founding of the JSA) ....
    Why should/would you?
    History is history. It's one thing to eliminate/play-down things that may have been acceptable back then but totally offensive now (such as how many non-white characters were presented in the Golden Age), but what's "offensive" about a team from the 1940s that was originally a bunch of white males?
    Are you also going to go back and insert females and people of color as the signers of the Declaration of Independence?



    That's the way it was. Deal with it. Now, if somebody is creating a brand new superhero team that was operating in the 1940s that wasn't based on past teams/stories, then a more diverse membership should be considered. But if you force those changes retroactively on the JSA, why the hell bother "bringing them back"?!?

  4. #154
    Fantastic Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    That's the way it was. Deal with it. Now, if somebody is creating a brand new superhero team that was operating in the 1940s that wasn't based on past teams/stories, then a more diverse membership should be considered. But if you force those changes retroactively on the JSA, why the hell bother "bringing them back"?!?
    Because having a fictional cast of people together, all of the same race / ethnicity, is no longer okay.**



    **At least if they're caucasian.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by philosopop View Post
    It's possible to pick and edit from the past without making it a totally white boys club (albeit being a mostly wbc) , but you'd have to edit out some whites (at least for the founding of the JSA) ....
    Or you leave them in there and acknowledge that past.

    It is a product of its time.

    However if we have Batman and friends in the 40ish age range that would mean they were all born in the 70s. If you age up JSA to say they started in the late 50s-early 60s. You could get away with a POC being a founder.

    If not leave it as is. Even if you have to do a story that explains why POC were not on the team.
    And in reality who was around at that time? Amazing Man senior?

  6. #156
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    . . . However if we have Batman and friends in the 40ish age range that would mean they were all born in the 70s. If you age up JSA to say they started in the late 50s-early 60s. You could get away with a POC being a founder.
    Whatever s/he is a "founder" of, it wouldn't be he true
    "Justice Society of America".
    It would be more like bringing back what DC foisted upon us in the Nu52.



    If that's the group people want, that's their choice.
    Just don't try and pretend it's a "return of" the Justice Society of America

  7. #157
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Why should/would you?
    History is history. It's one thing to eliminate/play-down things that may have been acceptable back then but totally offensive now (such as how many non-white characters were presented in the Golden Age), but what's "offensive" about a team from the 1940s that was originally a bunch of white males?
    Are you also going to go back and insert females and people of color as the signers of the Declaration of Independence?

    That's the way it was. Deal with it. Now, if somebody is creating a brand new superhero team that was operating in the 1940s that wasn't based on past teams/stories, then a more diverse membership should be considered. But if you force those changes retroactively on the JSA, why the hell bother "bringing them back"?!?
    You have a point.
    The original JSA in All-Star Comics, as it was created, was essentially a promotional comic for the members' solo features in their anthologies.
    It was a product of its time.

    I could see adding Amazing Man in their history after All-Star #57, however. Or even say he joined previously, in a never-chronicled story, but was only around for one adventure, like Wildcat.
    Heck, almost the entire run of All-Star Squadron was set between two issues of All-Star Comics.
    With the exception of their first two issues, which were quarterly, the original All-Star JSA run was bi-monthly with self-contained stories. It would be real easy to fill in the original JSA's history with 'untold tales' without invalidating the originals.
    But it would require someone like Roy Thomas that would respect both the original characters and Gardner Fox's stories.

    Another Idea could be to say that the Young All-Stars members formed a temporary JSA when the original team disbanded at the start of the '50s.

    There are ways to do it where you can stay true to the original stories, much like how Thomas handled adding diversity in the All-Star Squadron and Young All-Stars.
    And even later in their history, with Infinity, Inc.

    And it makes sense for the team to become diverse over time, as opposed to being there already from the start, because it would mirror the real world's advancement in race and gender equality.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  8. #158
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    I have to kind of wonder if DC is going to have to take the Marvel approach to this situation, as Alonso did with the SW situation. SW was delayed, a lot, to the point that the hold up in the story was going to delay a lot of books coming out. So, rather then delay everything, they decided to put out the new books on time, and the last issues of SW came out later to fill in the gaps. Honestly I think that needs to be done with this..if they can't get it out by Late August or early September, I would say just put out the books and play fill in the blank with the rest of the story. Even if the ending has a huge reveal, books shouldn't be held hostage like this period.

  9. #159
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    How many changes they want to make for delay this again?

    Seems that they want to make a lot of changes.. Why not add more issues?

  10. #160
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    I was panicking I hadn’t read issues 3 and 4 yet. Seems I have time then...

  11. #161
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    If reinstated, it would work best to have the original lineup as the founders (sans making their Wonder Woman be a secretary, who should just be a founder if on the team) and note that membership grew quickly from there, but the team I'd want to read about is essentially the one Geoff Johns left when he finally left the book. I'm okay with dropping a couple of the people added post-Infinite Crisis, but I pretty much grew to love the team because of Geoff's JSA.

  12. #162
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    . . . And it makes sense for the team to become diverse over time, as opposed to being there already from the start, because it would mirror the real world's advancement in race and gender equality.
    The only way there should be any change to who was and wasn't a member during the JSA's Golden Age run is if there are changes similar to the decision DC made to remove duplicate heroes like Superman, Batman & Robin, and Wonder Woman from the Golden Age stories to avoid duplication once the Earths were merged into a combined history, and even that's not all that satisfactory. As for having changes made to the original membership to "mirror the real world's advancement in race and gender equality", what the F#@&?!? are you talking about?!? You want a 1940s-set group to purely reflect 21st century values?
    THEN LEAVE THE JUSTICESOCIETY OF AMERICA ALONE AND DON'T USE THEM!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    If reinstated, it would work best to have the original lineup as the founders (sans making their Wonder Woman be a secretary, who should just be a founder if on the team) . . .
    I agree that making Wonder Woman the "secretary" isn't all that important in this day and age, though in an issue of Young All-Stars Roy Thomas addressed it in a way that made sense to let Diana still have that function. But Wonder Woman should NOT retroactively be made a "founding member"; she doesn't have to serve a damn quota system! She first appeared in All Star Comics #8, the fifth issue that featured the group. And unless you rewrite the group's origin story again (which first was revealed in DC Special #29 in 1977 and was revised to leave out Golden Age Superman and Batman post-CoIE in Secret Origins #31 from 1988).
    But, again, changing the groups origin would be a lame, politically-correct move that would be unnecessary since the idea that a bunch of guys worked together in the past without including a woman shouldn't be "offensive" to anybody with common sense.

    Now, if the early stories of the JSA included characters like Steamboat from the Captain Marvel comics

    then I could see making changes so that a character would not be so racially insensitive to modern audiences.

  13. #163
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    The only way there should be any change to who was and wasn't a member during the JSA's Golden Age run is if there are changes similar to the decision DC made to remove duplicate heroes like Superman, Batman & Robin, and Wonder Woman from the Golden Age stories to avoid duplication once the Earths were merged into a combined history, and even that's not all that satisfactory. As for having changes made to the original membership to "mirror the real world's advancement in race and gender equality", what the F#@&?!? are you talking about?!? You want a 1940s-set group to purely reflect 21st century values?
    THEN LEAVE THE JUSTICESOCIETY OF AMERICA ALONE AND DON'T USE THEM!!!
    I think you mis-understood what I wrote. Please go back and re-read it.
    I'm saying that no changes should be made to the founders and original members.

    I'm saying that the diversity that everyone seems to be clamoring for could be introduced as a gradual development to the JSA after the Golden Age.
    Which, if they were left well enough alone and hadn't been dropped like a rock in 1950, would have eventually happened in the '60s, '70s or '80s. This would have reflected the real world where shows like Star Trek helped opened up racial diversity on tv and stars like Mary Tyler Moore opened up more equality for genders.

    This had already been done before, with regards to gender, with Huntress and Power Girl being added in the '70s. On an Earth-2 set in the '70s.

    Even Roy Thomas (the second most important Earth-2/JSA writer ever to exist) managed to interject more race and gender diversity into the Golden Age with his writing in All-Star Squadron and Young All-Stars. But he did it in a way that respected the original JSA history. Amazing Man's first appearance is set between All-Star Comics #11 and #12.
    And I'm sure if DC had given him a JSA book to write, he probably would have introduced more diversity into the team in a way that still would not have invalidated what came before.
    Especially when you consider that since some characters like Mr. Terrific and Wildcat only appeared in one or two stories of the original series, the series wasn't a serial which ran issue-to-issue but more of a series of individual stories and being bi-monthly there's plenty of gaps where someone could have joined briefly and never appeared again.
    And taking how almost the entire run of All-Star Squadron is set between two issues of All-Star Comics (again, without invalidating what came before, or after), there could be hundreds of 'untold stories' set between various other issues. And a few other members that just never appeared again, like Wildcat.

    And, imo, if Earth-2 hadn't been destroyed in COIE, Justice Society Infinity, which was introduced just before New52, was a natural progression of the JSA that should have happened when the Infinity Inc title eventually ended its run if it was still set on Earth-2.





    Although, I'd have had Star-Spangled Kid make his change to Skyman and introduce Stargirl as a new member.
    Last edited by Lee Stone; 05-06-2018 at 10:03 AM.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  14. #164
    Mighty Member Waterfall's Avatar
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    I say acknowledge the founders of JSA but also make it clear that lack of diversity is shameful and add other minority characters to expanded team.

  15. #165
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterfall View Post
    I say acknowledge the founders of JSA but also make it clear that lack of diversity is shameful and add other minority characters to expanded team.
    I wouldn't go so far as 'shaming them' for it.
    Just make it where people are proud of the progress we've made since then.

    Instead of damning the past, we should be celebrating the present.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

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