Cap and Tony after Secret Wars (2015)

[Alex_Jamieson]

Hi everyone!

I was wondering if anyone could help me, please.

I know this is old news, but I'm re-reading Hickman's run on Avengers and I've never been able to work out whether the fall out between Cap and Tony was addressed after the end of Secret Wars. I always found it unsatisfying that they were willing to fight each other to the death at the end of the universe, but, as far as I can tell, never mentioned it to each other again.

Did i miss an issue or anything? Or was it all undone by T'Challa using the Time Stone?

Thanks in advance for any guidance anyone can offer.

[Rosebunse]

The fallout was never really addressed. Aaron's Avengers has them seemingly trying to reconnect after all the fallout and fightimg, but we see that things are still a bit strained.

[JKtheMac]

Hi everyone!

I was wondering if anyone could help me, please.

I know this is old news, but I'm re-reading Hickman's run on Avengers and I've never been able to work out whether the fall out between Cap and Tony was addressed after the end of Secret Wars. I always found it unsatisfying that they were willing to fight each other to the death at the end of the universe, but, as far as I can tell, never mentioned it to each other again.

Did i miss an issue or anything? Or was it all undone by T'Challa using the Time Stone?

Thanks in advance for any guidance anyone can offer.

It was briefly addressed as an 'easy out' by Bendis, who introduced Iron Man in his run by hinting the Extremis 3.0 enhanced "Superior Iron Man" was changing his personality. "Armor not attached to my biology in that way that freaks everybody out".

This was also the theme of the Tom Taylor story, which implied the inversion in Axis made Tony go too far with his experiments on himself, and effectively made his inversion artificially extended right through to Secret Wars.

The idea that Tony effectively betrayed Steve many months previously when he distracted him with the expanded Avengers project, is not really reconciled. But they didn't really get back together until recently and a lot of water has flowed under that bridge since.

[Digifiend]

Not least Steve getting replaced for a while by an evil twin!

[CentralPower]

Did i miss an issue or anything? Or was it all undone by T'Challa using the Time Stone?

Thanks in advance for any guidance anyone can offer.

The easiest assumption is that is was undone after "Secret Wars", either by Panther or by Reed et al. The universe gets fixed, and Hickman's run is ambiguated out (at the end of "Secret Wars").

Somebody mentioned (in another thread) that Robinson's "Invaders" run addressed this to some degree. But, I have read neither "Invaders" nor any comprehensible summaries of that series.

[JKtheMac]

The easiest assumption is that is was undone after "Secret Wars", either by Panther or by Reed et al. The universe gets fixed, and Hickman's run is ambiguated out (at the end of "Secret Wars").

Somebody mentioned (in another thread) that Robinson's "Invaders" run addressed this to some degree. But, I have read neither "Invaders" nor any comprehensible summaries of that series.

I defy anyone to make a comprehensible summary of that terrible series. From what I remember half of the comics were boring exposition getting the reader up to speed on what was going on everywhere else to the detriment of any narrative of its own. Most of this exposition made no sense anyway and only distracted from the story.

[charliehustle415]

The easiest assumption is that is was undone after "Secret Wars", either by Panther or by Reed et al. The universe gets fixed, and Hickman's run is ambiguated out (at the end of "Secret Wars").

Somebody mentioned (in another thread) that Robinson's "Invaders" run addressed this to some degree. But, I have read neither "Invaders" nor any comprehensible summaries of that series.

I agree with this take, I mean after Secret Wars isn't pretty much a new continuity? In Hickman's run everybody died and then was reborn anew so I am assuming everything before was forgotten or taken cared of by Valeria.

I mean no one is referring to Thor and Hyperion being killed by the beyonders (which was epic BTW)

[WebLurker]

I agree with this take, I mean after Secret Wars isn't pretty much a new continuity? In Hickman's run everybody died and then was reborn anew so I am assuming everything before was forgotten or taken cared of by Valeria.

It's my (limited understanding) that they've had it both ways. I recall when Secret Wars was first being announced that Marvel was saying that they would be creating a new universe after the event and then they started backing up and saying that it could be seen as the same universe fixed if you want it to. In practice, from what I've seen, post-SW 616 is written as if nothing happened, but SW is used as method to change/alter things as will. (I guess that post-SW is an altered timeline from the pre-SW stuff, but things happened largely the same.)

[Kirkpatrick]

They just have a bit of amnesia of all those days.

[JKtheMac]

It's my (limited understanding) that they've had it both ways. I recall when Secret Wars was first being announced that Marvel was saying that they would be creating a new universe after the event and then they started backing up and saying that it could be seen as the same universe fixed if you want it to. In practice, from what I've seen, post-SW 616 is written as if nothing happened, but SW is used as method to change/alter things as will. (I guess that post-SW is an altered timeline from the pre-SW stuff, but things happened largely the same.)

That is kind of true yes. To avoid the righteous indignation of those Marvel fans that will never be happy with a reboot they have kept quite quiet about the whole thing. There is no way continuity is exactly the same as previously, and anything can theoretically be hand-waved as being different since Secret Wars, but they won't directly say that, so much as hint it in the stories.

Instead we get characters turning up from alternative universes (like the New Universal characters) as if they have always existed here, and we get nomads from the 1610 (like Jimmy Hudson) and other universes (like Squadron Supreme) wandering around without a home universe to go to.

I was mentioning Bloodstorm as a 1610 character but I now realise I have no idea which universe she is from. Such is current continuity.

[CentralPower]

I mean no one is referring to Thor and Hyperion being killed by the beyonders (which was epic BTW)

Yup. (Or Thor's redemption right before that.)

In practice, from what I've seen, post-SW 616 is written as if nothing happened, but SW is used as method to change/alter things as will. (I guess that post-SW is an altered timeline from the pre-SW stuff, but things happened largely the same.)

If I recall, the biggest real change was that Quesada wanted to be rid of the formalized multiverse. (He is known to put a low priority on continuity.)

But, yes, new Marvel is actually "new buy very similar to the old stuff" Marvel.

Most of DC's reboots, including the original "Crisis on Infinite Earths" follows this model. Older, more dated, content is ignored. Newer content is typically kept, if only for a bit longer. Contradictions are sometimes addressed, sometimes not. In Marvel's case, "the Ultimates" formalized the reasoning behind things no longer corresponding. (Recent comics have given different start times to the Marvel "age of heroes", ranging from ~15 years to less than a decade.)

But, in real terms, most readers are unlikely to notice any significant changes.

Instead we get characters turning up from alternative universes (like the New Universal characters) as if they have always existed here, and we get nomads from the 1610 (like Jimmy Hudson) and other universes (like Squadron Supreme) wandering around without a home universe to go to.

Just for the hell of it, I want somebody to ask about the evil Hulk from Hickman's run. I have been assuming that he simply got wiped out when the universe came back together. But, I would love to see a Marvel rep trip around on that question.

[charliehustle415]

Yup. (Or Thor's redemption right before that.)




If I recall, the biggest real change was that Quesada wanted to be rid of the formalized multiverse. (He is known to put a low priority on continuity.)

But, yes, new Marvel is actually "new buy very similar to the old stuff" Marvel.

Most of DC's reboots, including the original "Crisis on Infinite Earths" follows this model. Older, more dated, content is ignored. Newer content is typically kept, if only for a bit longer. Contradictions are sometimes addressed, sometimes not. In Marvel's case, "the Ultimates" formalized the reasoning behind things no longer corresponding. (Recent comics have given different start times to the Marvel "age of heroes", ranging from ~15 years to less than a decade.)

But, in real terms, most readers are unlikely to notice any significant changes.




Just for the hell of it, I want somebody to ask about the evil Hulk from Hickman's run. I have been assuming that he simply got wiped out when the universe came back together. But, I would love to see a Marvel rep trip around on that question.

Oh yeah I totally forgot about Thor's redemption, too bad Marvel didn't feel confident enough to rip it all down and start again.

Can you imagine if the Avenger's went back to its original core members and then slowly building out or the X-Men starting again with the original class and then building the X-Nation again. Moreover, Marvel could have kept the "New Class" like Miles, Khan, Cho, and have them be established from the beginning as opposed to being shoehorned copies of the original heroes.

Ahh, the potential for new takes on classic stories would have been pretty amazing.

[CentralPower]

But, can you imagine the blowback from readers?

DC only got away with "Crisis on Infinite Earths" in 1985 because the whiny and self-entitled fans could not unite over an internet. (Yes, the internet existed in 1985. But, it was not commonly accessible.)

More importantly, the comic industry itself was healthier in 1985. If an old fan left (for any reason), it was easier to replace them. Inherent differences between Marvel and DC, particularly DC putting a lower value on consistency, also played a role.

For Marvel to do a hard "history starts now" reboot in 2016.... That would have been dangerous. Yes, it would have been bold. Yes, we probably would have gotten good comics. But, it would have been commercially dangerous, so it is hard to blame Marvel for backing down.

[charliehustle415]

But, can you imagine the blowback from readers?

DC only got away with "Crisis on Infinite Earths" in 1985 because the whiny and self-entitled fans could not unite over an internet. (Yes, the internet existed in 1985. But, it was not commonly accessible.)

More importantly, the comic industry itself was healthier in 1985. If an old fan left (for any reason), it was easier to replace them. Inherent differences between Marvel and DC, particularly DC putting a lower value on consistency, also played a role.

For Marvel to do a hard "history starts now" reboot in 2016.... That would have been dangerous. Yes, it would have been bold. Yes, we probably would have gotten good comics. But, it would have been commercially dangerous, so it is hard to blame Marvel for backing down.

I agree, but hot damn it would have been good to read.