If Cheetah Was Some Sort of Morphing Evil Thunder Cat - She'd Get Better Respect

[RepHope]

Agreed.

She's also a classic Wonder foe. There's kind of no getting around the name. I choose to embrace it and the upgrade/curse/bad judgement that's been her birthright since Perez.

I enjoyed Rucka's version, but her recent sympathetic nature kind of made her lose her edge (to me.) She's more sympathetically tragic now than before. Sometimes I miss the tragedy and brilliance that was the Machiavellian Barbara Minerva by Perez. She scared me more than the Cheetah in some cases. The broken, evil Indiana Jones was someone I could see researching tons of mythical and magical knowledge and then having a sit down with Lex Luthor and telling him how things were going to be.

I liked her being more of a “Two-Face” the former best friend gone bad. But the ending of Rucka’s run had her gleefully rub Cale’s failure to get her daughter back in Cale’s face, and then try to maul her to death. Someone could definitely take her down a darker path if they wished to.

[WonderScott]

I liked her being more of a “Two-Face” the former best friend gone bad. But the ending of Rucka’s run had her gleefully rub Cale’s failure to get her daughter back in Cale’s face, and then try to maul her to death. Someone could definitely take her down a darker path if they wished to.

I can see that. Since it appears Barbara is back in the upcoming issues, maybe she'll get some more agency and go down that path. (Enough with being the pawn or Cale and Urzkartaga...it's time for Cheetah to come into her own.) She still has an axe to grind with Cale and we'll have to see how being free of Urzie has influenced her.

[Silver Phoenix]

I would like to see Barbara have the ability to transform into her Cheetah form at will. I hope her powers are linked to the gods (Urzkartaga or some other deity) but I would like to see her break free of that influence and claim being Cheetah for her own purposes.

I see Barbara as a conflicted woman dealing with inner demons and becoming Cheetah gives her an out of sorts. Her relationship with Diana leaves her torn because she knows Diana is a genuine friend but she also represents what she feels she lacks... and when she finds out Di is WW, it just compounds things for both of them.

[RepHope]

I would like to see Barbara have the ability to transform into her Cheetah form at will. I hope her powers are linked to the gods (Urzkartaga or some other deity) but I would like to see her break free of that influence and claim being Cheetah for her own purposes.

I see Barbara as a conflicted woman dealing with inner demons and becoming Cheetah gives her an out of sorts. Her relationship with Diana leaves her torn because she knows Diana is a genuine friend but she also represents what she feels she lacks... and when she finds out Di is WW, it just compounds things for both of them.

This. But I do not think this is an ability Cheetah should spontaneously acquire off-panel. All the great villains have goals beyond merely beating the hero. Think of Two-Face and his obsession with duality, Joker's quest for chaos and destruction, Riddler's quest to be the smartest, Lex's goal of shaping humanity, Darkseid's searching for the Anti-Life Equation. Their goals bring them into conflict with the hero, but do not need to be focused on the hero, although after a while the focus can shift like how it did for Joker with Batman and Lex with Superman.

I think Cheetah should have three goals:
1. Searching for the ability to shift between human and Cheetah forms. Minerva has been shown in Rebirth to crave the power of Cheetah but simultaneously hate the forced servitude to Urz. This would be a good point of conflict with Diana, because Diana would want to "cure" Minerva of the ability to be Cheetah as a whole, which should not be something Minerva wants anymore. She never wants to be "powerless" again, she wants the gifts without the curse.
2. As an archaeologist she would be interested in history and artifacts that the gods or other magical/mythical forces have buried. Diana would be drawn into conflict with Cheetah because she either fears the danger unearthing these things could bring, respects the will of the gods/goddesses and doesn't want to transgress against them by defacing their burial sites, or has been directly tasked to prevent intruders from finding these lost treasure troves.
3. Revenge against Cale. This would be good for my favorite type of story: villain vs villain. Diana would be torn between her dislike/hate of Cale, and her need to see Minerva redeemed which would be impossible if she murdered Cale and then ended up in Waller's hands on the Suicide Squad.

[kjn]

I think the Barbara Ann Minerva Cheetah as is already has all the elements needed to be a great villain and nemesis for Wonder Woman. The problem has more been poor writing, poor long-term characterisation, and on-off inclusion in the story. Which are largely the same issues that have plagued all the secondary characters around Wonder Woman.

I do think that she is by far the best candidate among Wonder Woman's rogues gallery. Veronica Cale is too much of a distaff counterpart to Lex Luthor; Doctor Psycho has extremely strong ableist implications and is arguably too much of a caricature; Grail is too new, too cosmic (ie won't get the personal connection), and has backstory issues; Circe is too passive and reactive; Giganta is more the henchwoman. The other good candidate is Doctor Poison.

With Cheetah I'd play up the Jekyll/Hyde or werewolf nature, to try to amplify and challenge Wonder Woman's compassionate focus. It could also be a good analogue of a person who suffers under too much pressure, snaps, and strikes out uncontrollably at times. The dual nature of Barbara Minerva and Cheetah could be a way to explore both Wonder Woman's identity as Diana (right now sadly underdeveloped), and also explore how both "good" and "bad" women are treated and circumscribed under the patriarchy.

(But I'd drop the bit about Cheetah becoming cursed by Urzkartaga because she was not a virgin. It reeks of the meme that women are only good when pure, and should be sexually inexperienced until marriage.)

I like RepHope's suggestion about having an antagonism between Cheetan and Veronica Cale too. It makes Cheetah a victim not only under a curse but also under a Thatcher-like woman.

[Agent Z]

I think the Barbara Ann Minerva Cheetah as is already has all the elements needed to be a great villain and nemesis for Wonder Woman. The problem has more been poor writing, poor long-term characterisation, and on-off inclusion in the story. Which are largely the same issues that have plagued all the secondary characters around Wonder Woman.

I do think that she is by far the best candidate among Wonder Woman's rogues gallery. Veronica Cale is too much of a distaff counterpart to Lex Luthor; Doctor Psycho has extremely strong ableist implications and is arguably too much of a caricature; Grail is too new, too cosmic (ie won't get the personal connection), and has backstory issues; Circe is too passive and reactive; Giganta is more the henchwoman. The other good candidate is Doctor Poison.

With Cheetah I'd play up the Jekyll/Hyde or werewolf nature, to try to amplify and challenge Wonder Woman's compassionate focus. It could also be a good analogue of a person who suffers under too much pressure, snaps, and strikes out uncontrollably at times. The dual nature of Barbara Minerva and Cheetah could be a way to explore both Wonder Woman's identity as Diana (right now sadly underdeveloped), and also explore how both "good" and "bad" women are treated and circumscribed under the patriarchy.

(But I'd drop the bit about Cheetah becoming cursed by Urzkartaga because she was not a virgin. It reeks of the meme that women are only good when pure, and should be sexually inexperienced until marriage.)

I like RepHope's suggestion about having an antagonism between Cheetan and Veronica Cale too. It makes Cheetah a victim not only under a curse but also under a Thatcher-like woman.

How is Circe passive and reactive?

[The Dying Detective]

Maybe, with the right story. I don't see Barbara as the priestess type and she seems pretty happy to be free of old Urzie. I kind of see her more as the type to go on more archeological missions and explore the magical and mythical side of the DCU to gain more power. Rucka's take imbued her with a lot of curiosity and thirst for knowledge which was admirable until it turned darker for her.

Maybe we can see an ongoing conflict between Barbara versus Diana and ARGUS/Black Room versus Saturna and her Crimson Men in a race to locate and use all the mystical artifacts in the DCU. Hmm...

The priestess thing could be done for the Earth One Cheetah if Morrison so desires it and he's crazy enough to do it. What Rucka did was bring back Barbara Ann Minerva's old characterisation just with a more sympathetic slant to make her less one dimensional but I wonder whether in the long run will she still desire to destroy the Greek gods once her first attempt fails? Though DC could surprise us and have her succeed. That ongoing conflict sounds awesome and I hope DC will do it at some point.

[kjn]

How is Circe passive and reactive?

I'm mainly familiar with the Circe of the myths, and she mostly stayed on her island, and interacted with the people who arrived there. She also struck me as more hedonistic and egocentric rather than directly malevolent, and she definitely didn't hold grudges.

Those are elements that don't make for a good nemesis figure.

[Confuzzled]

I'm mainly familiar with the Circe of the myths, and she mostly stayed on her island, and interacted with the people who arrived there. She also struck me as more hedonistic and egocentric rather than directly malevolent, and she definitely didn't hold grudges.

Those are elements that don't make for a good nemesis figure.

She displayed inconsistent personality traits even in the myths and later stories had her destroying her island and moving to Italy.

[marhawkman]

I'm mainly familiar with the Circe of the myths, and she mostly stayed on her island, and interacted with the people who arrived there. She also struck me as more hedonistic and egocentric rather than directly malevolent, and she definitely didn't hold grudges.

Those are elements that don't make for a good nemesis figure.

They DO make for a long running recurring opponent though.

[SiegePerilous02]

I'm mainly familiar with the Circe of the myths, and she mostly stayed on her island, and interacted with the people who arrived there. She also struck me as more hedonistic and egocentric rather than directly malevolent, and she definitely didn't hold grudges.

Those are elements that don't make for a good nemesis figure.

She displayed inconsistent personality traits even in the myths and later stories had her destroying her island and moving to Italy.

I wouldn't say being passive or reactive is a problem DCU Circe has ever had as a villain.

Having no consistent motivation to speak of has been her main problem. She's even worse than the various versions of the Cheetah. The motivations she does end of getting are usually convoluted and kind of stupid (swapping souls, etc). One of the only good things the DCAU did with a WW character was simplifying Circe as being an old foe of Hippolyta who takes her grudge out on Diana out of petty spite.

[AmiMizuno]

That's the best way to make Circe a Hippolyta foe. I wonder what about adding that Hippolyta killed her child? So she wants Hippolyta to feel that.

[The Dying Detective]

That's the best way to make Circe a Hippolyta foe. I wonder what about adding that Hippolyta killed her child? So she wants Hippolyta to feel that.

That would mean Wonder Woman died before her story even began.

[AmiMizuno]

That would mean Wonder Woman died before her story even began.

Unless Circe has been locked away until Wonder Woman got freed and that the shield was powerful enough to hide away from Circe finding them. Also, why not have Circe have to try to kill Diana when she is an adult? That Circe is doing the same to Hippolyta. Not killing Diana until she is an Adult. Why? Simple to see your child grow up and then die in front of you is cruel. Circe's child was an adult and so Circe is simply returning the favor

I would like to see Barbara have the ability to transform into her Cheetah form at will.

What if all she needs it was to eat or drink the blood of a God?

[The Dying Detective]

Unless Circe has been locked away until Wonder Woman got freed and that the shield was powerful enough to hide away from Circe finding them. Also, why not have Circe have to try to kill Diana when she is an adult? That Circe is doing the same to Hippolyta. Not killing Diana until she is an Adult. Why? Simple to see your child grow up and then die in front of you is cruel. Circe's child was an adult and so Circe is simply returning the favor.

If that happened Circe would have finally done something that made her one Wonder Woman's enemies no one has hurt Wonder Woman so far and gotten away with it at least to my knowledge anyway.