Just how fast is CW Flash now?

[big_adventure]

Just a couple of tiny points, and then I'm gone.

1: Running to China and back in 15 seconds is absurdly slower than lightspeed.

2: having a 3 minute conversation before anyone notices you have moved (the courtroom scene) is ridiculously slow compared to lightspeed.

Lightspeed can take you to the moon in 2-3 seconds. A car driving at highway speeds with no stops would take 6 months for reference.

That's exactly what I was pointing out before. :-)

No doubt he's fast: he's in the hundreds or thousands of mach level by a number of feats now. It's just that ALL of his other feats are like nothing at all compared to the nuke feat, and the fact that the other speedsters do the same thing, no problem except eventual fatigue, makes it even more of an outlier. I mean, they spent months training Barry and Wally to make them fast enough to cross a relatively short distance at some trivial multiplier of the speed of sound to save Iris from Savitar. And Barry, with all of that, wasn't capable of reaching that level: only Wally could. I'm acceptably fine with the idea that "Barry spent months in the speed force and therefore got way speedier" argument. But how exactly does that apply to all of the other speedsters who did nothing of the sort?

Hey, it's likely perhaps that Barry's speed gets confirmed at that level eventually. But for now, he's simply not got the feats to just grant that. It's "Neutron Star Tank" level as far as outliers go, perhaps even larger.

[The Arbiter]

That's exactly what I was pointing out before. :-)
.

Stop it. I can't handle us being on the same side of an argument. Bleh.

;p

[big_adventure]

Stop it. I can't handle us being on the same side of an argument. Bleh.

;p

We still need a damn like button.

[Slade1]

please. if this was arrow, they'd all be fighting each other over stupid ****, iris would be a petty bitch about secrets and iris and barry would dance around each other for years.

I stopped watching after season 4. Should have stopped after season 2 when it was actually good.

[Cody]

That's exactly what I was pointing out before. :-)

No doubt he's fast: he's in the hundreds or thousands of mach level by a number of feats now. It's just that ALL of his other feats are like nothing at all compared to the nuke feat, and the fact that the other speedsters do the same thing, no problem except eventual fatigue, makes it even more of an outlier. I mean, they spent months training Barry and Wally to make them fast enough to cross a relatively short distance at some trivial multiplier of the speed of sound to save Iris from Savitar. And Barry, with all of that, wasn't capable of reaching that level: only Wally could. I'm acceptably fine with the idea that "Barry spent months in the speed force and therefore got way speedier" argument. But how exactly does that apply to all of the other speedsters who did nothing of the sort?

Hey, it's likely perhaps that Barry's speed gets confirmed at that level eventually. But for now, he's simply not got the feats to just grant that. It's "Neutron Star Tank" level as far as outliers go, perhaps even larger.

That's why I am fine with saying the two of them are comparable in speed for the time. Barry has enough high end feats to suggest he is faster, yet enough low end showings to suggest he is slower. So the middle ground of them being even seems to be a fair compromise imo.

[Slade1]

Just a couple of tiny points, and then I'm gone.

1: Running to China and back in 15 seconds is absurdly slower than lightspeed.

2: having a 3 minute conversation before anyone notices you have moved (the courtroom scene) is ridiculously slow compared to lightspeed.

Lightspeed can take you to the moon in 2-3 seconds. A car driving at highway speeds with no stops would take 6 months for reference.

Just a small nitpick, but light takes 1.3 seconds to reach the moon from Earth.

[The Arbiter]

Just a small nitpick, but light takes 1.3 seconds to reach the moon from Earth.

Ah, thanks. I was going off of memory.

....thats even worse for the outlier!

[Anarchist]

I'd say that makes it an outlier for Jay and Jesse, sure.

Barry?

He had another explicit upgrade, with being in the Speedforce for so long. And yes, it IS vastly faster than the China feat, but again, during the Nuke feat he was going as fast as he possibly could, being exhausted as **** in the end.
The China thing? Seemed extremely casual.

Also, praising how Quicksilver has had so much less PIS is a bit strange. The dude has been in 2 movies so far. Plus, he isn't even a real member of the X-Men.
Barry? He is the titular character of a show that has been going on for 4 Seasons now.

[Basara]

Slow your roll, there. When I say Cisco isn't cool, I'm actually speaking of how he's either a panicked idiot or a useless blowhard in nearly every stress situation, despite his massive and impressive powerset and intellect. When I say that Quicksilver is cool, I'm referring how he doesn't panic, doesn't stress, and shows an abundance of confidence that he absolutely lives up to every single time he tries to, and does it while CLEARLY still having fun and appreciating just how damn awesome his abilities are.

Wait, you're telling us that the go-to guy to vibe to Barry/Wally/Ralph every time they get in trouble, vibe blast the problem away, and vibe said hero away, as well as the one guy who consistently confidently says "I can build that!" and builds the miracle device needed to defeat villain of the week in almost no time at all is "a panicked idiot or a useless blowhard in nearly every stress situation"?

Clearly we're watching two completely different shows.

Also, praising how Quicksilver has had so much less PIS is a bit strange. The dude has been in 2 movies so far. Plus, he isn't even a real member of the X-Men.

Exactly, he's been on the screen roughly 30 minutes total in 2 movies and already has racked up one PIS defeat to his record. The claim that he is immune to PIS is nonsense.

[big_adventure]

Wait, you're telling us that the go-to guy to vibe to Barry/Wally/Ralph every time they get in trouble, vibe blast the problem away, and vibe said hero away, as well as the one guy who consistently confidently says "I can build that!" and builds the miracle device needed to defeat villain of the week in almost no time at all is "a panicked idiot or a useless blowhard in nearly every stress situation"?

Clearly we're watching two completely different shows.

Nooooo, one of us is clearly capable of putting our crush on the shelf long enough to recognize just how often Cisco completely forgets everything he can do and behaves like one of the three stooges in actual combat situations. It happens A LOT. Instead of shooting, he stands there paralyzed until someone else shoots him. Instead of using his breaches in a useful way, he flounders them frequently. No, not EVERY time. But frequently. Look at it this way: the guy is brilliant. So is Wells (well, for the moment). So is Caitlin. So is Barry for that matter. Yet none of them ever come up with the idea: "hey, Cisco, while I've got the villain monologuing, why don't you breach in behind him and then vibe blast him MORE THAN ONCE, then we can cuff his unconscious self and drop his stupid ass in the pipeline." That would be useful. I mean, it ignores why the, in your estimation, FTL Barry doesn't just run up and do the same without all of the pretext, but you know, it'd still be a plan. Much better than the "run in, block some shots with our faces, and wind up in a situation where we lose and run away with our tails between our legs at least once every single week," which seems to be the plan du jour, each and every time.

And I say all of this as someone who actually enjoys the show to varying degrees. Sure, I wish they would come up with better plotlines that don't so completely revolve around PIS - Devoe is sort of that, really, or was: he can teleport, he has forcefields when he has his chair, though they still have to have Barry completely forget that he's the fastest man alive and not a wheelchair-bound blind person to make the situations go.

Exactly, he's been on the screen roughly 30 minutes total in 2 movies and already has racked up one PIS defeat to his record. The claim that he is immune to PIS is nonsense.

Who claimed that? He has fewer appearances, but Barry and Co. have roughly a 100% instance of PIS in every encounter. Quicky does not. Not even close. And this discussion was not about whether he is immune to PIS, it was about the relative speeds of the two characters.

[StuffKnower]

Second argument: as bad as X-Men writing can be, movie Quicksilver is just so damn cool that he'd escape the CW-induced PIS field.

I think people are reacting to that line. Which I took as a throwaway/joke line. But you did, indeed assert that he is immune to PIS, or at least the kind generated by CW shows. And, honestly, the term "so damn cool" tends to lead one to think more of a "bad-ass" use than a "keeps calm under pressure" use.

Again, in my estimation a throwaway not worth considering as part of real debate, but it is there.

[StuffKnower]

I'd say that makes it an outlier for Jay and Jesse, sure.

Certainly Jesse. Jay has also spent some time in that Speed Force prison. Maybe he came out the faster for it.

[big_adventure]

Certainly Jesse. Jay has also spent some time in that Speed Force prison. Maybe he came out the faster for it.

That's the problem: it's a huge number of maybes, plus a clear "no reason for that at all" to accept a feat that's billions of times better than anything else any of them ever do.

[Basara]

Who claimed that?

You did a few pages back:

Second argument: as bad as X-Men writing can be, movie Quicksilver is just so damn cool that he'd escape the CW-induced PIS field.

Then when I challenged you on his coolness, you changed it to mean he's cool under pressure, which Barry (and Cisco for that matter) has also shown he is on so many occasions.

You can't have it both ways. You cannot state that your character "crush" is immune to PIS while mine can't escape it when everyone knows that simply is not true.

And this discussion was not about whether he is immune to PIS, it was about the relative speeds of the two characters.

Which I was discussing until you made the wild claim above. Yes, Devoe caught Barry. Guess what, he'd catch Peter too. Why? For the same reason Stryker caught Peter: PIS. That's why we ignore PIS and focus on the feats that happened when PIS is not in effect.

Basically, your argument is Barry's best feats should be nerfed because he gets caught by humans with ordinary human reflexes while Quicksilver's best feats should be amplified because he's having fun and is not being serious.

I'm arguing based on what we've actually seen, which is Barry has done a stop time twice (possibly three times, there was the prison card game too) and Quicksilver hasn't. Everything else is pure speculation. There is zero proof that Quicksilver is as fast as Barry now.

[big_adventure]

You did a few pages back:



Then when I challenged you on his coolness, you changed it to mean he's cool under pressure, which Barry (and Cisco for that matter) has also shown he is on so many occasions.

You can't have it both ways. You cannot state that your character "crush" is immune to PIS while mine can't escape it when everyone knows that simply is not true.



Which I was discussing until you made the wild claim above. Yes, Devoe caught Barry. Guess what, he'd catch Peter too. Why? For the same reason Stryker caught Peter: PIS. That's why we ignore PIS and focus on the feats that happened when PIS is not in effect.

Basically, your argument is Barry's best feats should be nerfed because he gets caught by humans with ordinary human reflexes while Quicksilver's best feats should be amplified because he's having fun and is not being serious.

I'm arguing based on what we've actually seen, which is Barry has done a stop time twice (possibly three times, there was the prison card game too) and Quicksilver hasn't. Everything else is pure speculation. There is zero proof that Quicksilver is as fast as Barry now.

OK, several things here:

1. I never said Quicksilver was immune to PIS. I made a semi-joke comment that he could probably resist the unimaginable CW PIS field based on the fact that he DOES NOT get PIS'd in 90% of his action sequences. Which is true. But I don't pretend to write the show.

2. Barry has some mildly to vastly supersonic feats, and one (count them, I'll give you a second: yup, it's one) feat of lightspeed-ish outlier-ness. That's an outlier here on this board. If not, MCU Thor tanks neutron stars.

3. Quicksilver has more or less done all kinds of "time is stopped or virtually so" stuff requiring vastly supersonic speed. Just like Barry. And Peter shows in basically every one of them that that particular level is his "screwing around and playing" level. Because every time, he then goes crazy invisible fast FROM INSIDE THE TIME STOP/mega-slow. Not that they should be amplified, but rather that you need to take the consistent, high-end stuff, which is him going invisible super mega stupid fast on top of the time almost-stop that we already see him wandering around and playing in. Because he does this every time.

4. I never claimed that Peter is faster than current Barry. Not once. I did absolutely claim that Barry is MUCH more crippled by PIS. And if you argue that, it means that your love for the character is blinding you to what we see on screen every week, to the point that you are ignoring that it happens. Again, each and every week. Not just Davoe, but Black Siren, and every other freak of the week that has ever appeared on the show.