Detective Comics #980 preview

[TheCape]

Maybe a new direction will make me like the character.

I never really liked Jason much but Rebirth Red Hood gave me a new found appreciation and I really like him now. Hopefully the same will happen to Tim as of yet ive never read anything with him ive actually enjoyed.

If Tynion rights him totally the same though then im not sure that will happen! we shall see!

Out curiosity what stories have you read about him?

[Katana500]

Out curiosity what stories have you read about him?

Really just his New 52 - Rebirth Appearances. I think i've read the occasional old issue he's been in but I didn't really love him much their either.

[adrikito]

Oh my god, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care. Nothing but a waste of pages. Hopefully this is all the page time Tim and Kate get in this issue.

I understand you. I expected a different preview. I am dissapointed.

Maybe a new direction will make me like the character.

I never really liked Jason much but Rebirth Red Hood gave me a new found appreciation and I really like him now. Hopefully the same will happen to Tim as of yet ive never read anything with him ive actually enjoyed.

Steph has been the most ruined here, I saw fans insulting her. I hope that YJ helps Steph as a character.

The first time that I saw Jason was in Batman: Under Red Hood, I liked him.

Despite probably I followed his worst era(N52 jason comics) in my mind he was a good character and now.. I am happy with the current outlaws and that Jason is not a villain like in Dick Batman and Robin volume. Only a different kind of hero

[millernumber1]

Well. Eaton's art looks better than I expected here, but it's still pretty pudding faced. But at least we get Barrows (even if he does do creepy smiles a bit too much). I've been furious with editorial for yanking Tynion's artists for Justice League three times in a row (Fabok from Eternal, Daniel from BR Eternal, and now Martinez from Tec), but getting Barrows to do 981 makes me really happy.

(Now if we could just change the cover a bit... ).

Looks interesting. Going to be sad to see him go.

I'm really sad. I mean, I'm happy that he's getting a book he loves, and Zatanna plus Martinez makes me pretty interested in the book, but...this book is literally the book I wanted him to write (except for writing Steph out in the second arc) since he started bringing people back in the Eternals. It's really a bummer to me, especially since I have so consistently enjoyed it. I don't claim it's been perfect, but I really like almost every one of the characters in it (Clayface was new in a heroic role, so I didn't like him to start with), and I have enjoyed the voices Tynion gave to them all the way through (except, again, Steph in a few moments.)

I really like the Bruce, Cass and Steph cover! Its awesome

That cover. I'm almost tempted to buy two of them. It's pretty much everything I've wanted for 7 years (since September 2011).

Well, if Tynion is continuing with Tim into a new Young Justice book...

I'm so impatient to know what his secret title is...

Love the cover as well.

Also, Tec is one of the few bat books right now, save All-star that shows non costumes doing work.

I do really like the glimpses Tynion's given to the world beyond just the Bat. Even Luke, with his company, has given us so many bits that flesh out the world - him still having Rookie, Tam being back, his connections to the Wayne company and his father - it's great! (And yes, I love Luke partly because of those connections, which make the world feel more solid to me.)

I'm really not sure what to think of Tynion continuing to write Tim in a Young Justice book if he keeps up the same characterization used here.

I still think Tynion's Tim is pretty solid. He does sometimes wander into Lobdell-style overly cocky, but in general, his Tim is a sweet guy, who just wants to make the world a better place, which is why I like Tim as Robin so much.

I understand you. I expected a different preview. I am dissapointed.

I mean, I WOULD like for the preview to be: Page 1, Panel 1: Steph is BATGIRL. No explanation. She proceeds to singlehandedly kick every OMAC's butt, and then picks Tim up in a honeymoon hold and tells him to stop trying to make Brother Eye happen.

But this seems okay.

[Frontier]

I still think Tynion's Tim is pretty solid. He does sometimes wander into Lobdell-style overly cocky, but in general, his Tim is a sweet guy, who just wants to make the world a better place, which is why I like Tim as Robin so much.

I think Tynion's Tim is, at times, the closest we've gotten to the old Tim in a really long time, but I just feel like that's also been undercut by Tynion continuing some of the issue's of Tim's character that have plagued him since the reboot.

[millernumber1]

I think Tynion's Tim is, at times, the closest we've gotten to the old Tim in a really long time, but I just feel like that's also been undercut by Tynion continuing some of the issue's of Tim's character that have plagued him since the reboot.

Other than the hacker-fu (which has been pretty limited since Tim returned, I think), what would you like Tynion to stop emphasizing? (and I assume you mean n52, not Rebirth?)

[TheCape]

Other than the hacker-fu (which has been pretty limited since Tim returned, I think), what would you like Tynion to stop emphasizing? (and I assume you mean n52, not Rebirth?)

Personally, is the lack of focus on his civilian life and the emphasis on his intelligence, he lacks many of the grounding moments and personal relations outside of Bruce and Steph that make him unique and interesting.

[millernumber1]

Personally, is the lack of focus on his civilian life and the emphasis on his intelligence, he lacks many of the grounding moments and personal relations outside of Bruce and Steph that make him unique and interesting.

Fair, though with a team book those are always minimized, especially if you're dead for over 50% of the run. And we got Ives in the future!

[Darkspellmaster]

Kate acting as a distraction could have been shown in far less time (or Hell, even just have Bruce mention it as he and the girls head into the tower), OMACTim recruiting is something we already saw happening and there's no point in the police being aware of the situation if they aren't going to do anything important, which I guarantee you they won't. (And considering their almost complete irreverence in this run, really shouldn't.)

Rule one of any visual medium, Show don't tell. By having Bruce just say that, it makes the situation seem less urgent. You need to show Kate doing this and also point out the relationship to Renee at this point. She's legit worried about her and growing her dynamic that has been shown in Batwoman, and in the past as well. Yes we've seen it happening, with people who are not trained police. The fact that he's trying to do this with the cops shows he's gone from calculating to desperate at this point. Yes there is a point to it. If the cops know then they can make sure civilians won't be caught up in the crossfire of the whole thing. That is why we need to see more with the police working with the Bat Family to show why they are important to this town and to that group.

Page One: We see Gothamites going about their daily lives when OMACTim shows up and starts changing people.
Page Two: Batwoman shows up, eggs them on and gets them to come after her, revealing that she's working as a distraction.

So you would either have to do a very static one panel shot to set the scene, which is amaturish at best, and lazy at worst, and then spend the next 4 to 5 panels setting up for the attack? On page one? No that's not how comics work. Typically you have six panels a page, more or less depending on the flow that you want in the scene. You would need at least two pages for what you're suggesting here. One page to show a daily life of a citizen and then one to two showing them being attacked.

And Batwoman egging them on would take at least two pages, so you have four already, one shy of the five pages. And if you wanted something huge and grand for that first moment of attack you'd need a splash page, which would then be a total of 5 pages, as we got here.

Having it be with Renee and Harvey is a good thing because we already have a deep connection to these two. Having it be Kate rushing in adds another layer as, for one thing unlike Batman, Batwoman isn't someone that Harvey dislikes, and two you have a relationship with Kate and Renee. So having her in danger gives a tension to the scene and also gives us clues as to how OMACTim sees Renee as a threat to him. It shows their relationship and adds more to what sort of person Tim has become. Those five pages tells us several things.

1. Harvey and Renee have a good working relationship.
2. Harvey knows his stuff when it comes to the batfamily and the assosciates, meaning he does pay attention to them even if he says he doesn't care.
3. We known now that the paper work is being sent through various groups due to the issues that Monster Town created.
4. We know that there's a lot of work to be done after this, connecting back to the thing earlier with Steph and how actions by the Batfamily do cause more work for the civilians.
5. We also know that Harvey doesn't want to deal with the suits and that he still eats sloppy.
6. Renee has Kate's number on her phone under her name, meaning that they're still in contact and that she was the first one that Kate called.
7. When they are attacked the cops open fire without hesitation, even OMACTim notes that they didn't flinch. Showing us what sort of guts the GCPD has as a unit.
8. We know OMACTim is looking for strong people with determination and that he's looking beyond just the costumes.
9. We know that everyone in the office is ready for a fight and that the Omacs are going right at them.
10. We get a clue as to what sort of person Renee is in the future as a Commissioner and that right now she's ready to take them on.
11. We get how much Kate cares about Renee in that one moment with the word Finger bolded.
12. We get more about Evil Tim and Ulysses plans and how Kate can use what she knows to get under their skins.
13. Ulysses notes that Kate is not seen as this Tim's family, and that he was using non lethal force before.
14. We see how the distraction allows for the Omacs to leave the police alone and saves Renee and Harvey and the others.
15. We also get info here that this wasn't exactly part of the plan and that Kate being chased is a bit of a hic-up.
16. Bruce and the others, we learn, are going to be trying to get inside.
17. Cover image shows both Cass and Steph with ears on their shadows, indicating that there's clues as to their roles in the future as Batmen.

I got all that from those five pages.

And were I not already a fan of the characters, with the exception of Dr. October, a new character, nothing in 'Tec has been done to make me care about the non-costumes.

I don't know what to tell you in regard to that. Tynion has been trying to balance a lot of characters in there, and for the most part, I think he did a good job. This couldn't be a Gotham Central, which I think would do a lot to help push up the roles of the non costumed characters, but he's doing his best and in those five short pages I got a lot about the relationships between five main characters in that scene. Harvey and Renee, Renee and Kate, Kate and Tim, Tim and Renee, and Ulysses and Tim.

I'm really not sure what to think of Tynion continuing to write Tim in a Young Justice book if he keeps up the same characterization used here.

I agree that it's nice to see that, even if I don't think Tynion has used his civilian supporting cast as well or as consistently as he could have.

True enough regarding how he could have used them better, but he had a lot of characters to juggle. I have a feeling in a YJ book, which would probably be lighter in tone, he'd probably explore more about Tim himself and his relationships with the YJ crew, since Tim would be the main Bat character there.

That sounds... cramped.

Agreed, two pages would not be enough to show anything at all.

[Darkspellmaster]

Steph has been the most ruined here, I saw fans insulting her. I hope that YJ helps Steph as a character.

The first time that I saw Jason was in Batman: Under Red Hood, I liked him.

Despite probably I followed his worst era(N52 jason comics) in my mind he was a good character and now.. I am happy with the current outlaws and that Jason is not a villain like in Dick Batman and Robin volume. Only a different kind of hero

I wouldn't say Steph is ruined. A lot of what Tynion had to deal with was coming off of New 52, what Johns had planned and what Snyder had already in place with previous stories. Steph came off very much like her younger Spoiler Self before things changed her up and made her more mature. There's a lot of Anti Steph in the world coming from places. (Cass Fans who felt robbed, Babs fans who felt robbed, Cassie/Tim fans, Tim/Kon (Conner) fans, people that didn't like Spoiler in the first place, etc.) I think that YJ will certainly help, although I'm NOT looking forward to the Love triangle that probably will happen due to the last season indicating that Tim and Cassie (Wonder Girl) were into each other. If they get Kon to fall for Cassie and then have Tim move on to Spoiler I would be all for it. But...given Greg and Co. tend to like Love Triangles (see Gargoyles for that damn mess of things with Demona and Elisa and Goliath), especially in this series (all the drama with the past YJ characters) I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled that off.

Positives for the movie Red hood was that a lot was streamlined, minus is the fact that they changed Jason a bit for it to make him more understandable there. The original one was a LOT different.

Jason has become more of a Wolverine type of character, or like Buckey from Marvel. He's willing to use guns and do things that Bruce wouldn't, just like those two will do things that Scott or Cap may not like the idea of, but under it all he's still a good person with a lot of issues that he's always had.

Well. Eaton's art looks better than I expected here, but it's still pretty pudding faced. But at least we get Barrows (even if he does do creepy smiles a bit too much). I've been furious with editorial for yanking Tynion's artists for Justice League three times in a row (Fabok from Eternal, Daniel from BR Eternal, and now Martinez from Tec), but getting Barrows to do 981 makes me really happy.

(Now if we could just change the cover a bit... ).

Yeah I was a bit worried about that too, and agreed that Barrows is doing 981, my only worry is that after this, who's next up and if certain characters (looking at you Basil) will get to hang around. XD on the cover, I kinda like it, especially the shadows behind Steph and Cass.

I'm really sad. I mean, I'm happy that he's getting a book he loves, and Zatanna plus Martinez makes me pretty interested in the book, but...this book is literally the book I wanted him to write (except for writing Steph out in the second arc) since he started bringing people back in the Eternals. It's really a bummer to me, especially since I have so consistently enjoyed it. I don't claim it's been perfect, but I really like almost every one of the characters in it (Clayface was new in a heroic role, so I didn't like him to start with), and I have enjoyed the voices Tynion gave to them all the way through (except, again, Steph in a few moments.)

He's not perfect but I think that he did a good job pulling from what was before, keeping in what DC wanted and also creating dynamics that will help push the series forward if DC let's it happen. Don't know if I'm in the small minority in this but I like Clayface (and Riddler for that matter) being good guys. Basil I always thought would work better as a heroic character over a villain just due to his shifting skills and he could actually be a character that works well with getting info and having a different set of powers. His relationship with Cass is something that I enjoy and I hope they keep him around as a hero after Tynion leaves. Steph, I can agree at times she came off weird, but I think a lot of that was trying to figure out how not to do her exactly as Dixion did, but not as mature as she was with Bryan.

I think Tynion's Tim is, at times, the closest we've gotten to the old Tim in a really long time, but I just feel like that's also been undercut by Tynion continuing some of the issue's of Tim's character that have plagued him since the reboot.

Agreed. I do think that given time we might see a lot of those issues go away, especially given that the YJ series will have him in there and that he's going to play a larger part in it, so we may see him change to match some what of what the YJ version has him as. Also I wouldn't mind PAD coming back to do a YJ series with Tynion.

[millernumber1]

I wouldn't say Steph is ruined. A lot of what Tynion had to deal with was coming off of New 52, what Johns had planned and what Snyder had already in place with previous stories. Steph came off very much like her younger Spoiler Self before things changed her up and made her more mature. There's a lot of Anti Steph in the world coming from places. (Cass Fans who felt robbed, Babs fans who felt robbed, Cassie/Tim fans, Tim/Kon (Conner) fans, people that didn't like Spoiler in the first place, etc.) I think that YJ will certainly help, although I'm NOT looking forward to the Love triangle that probably will happen due to the last season indicating that Tim and Cassie (Wonder Girl) were into each other. If they get Kon to fall for Cassie and then have Tim move on to Spoiler I would be all for it. But...given Greg and Co. tend to like Love Triangles (see Gargoyles for that damn mess of things with Demona and Elisa and Goliath), especially in this series (all the drama with the past YJ characters) I wouldn't be surprised if they pulled that off.

Yeah I was a bit worried about that too, and agreed that Barrows is doing 981, my only worry is that after this, who's next up and if certain characters (looking at you Basil) will get to hang around. XD on the cover, I kinda like it, especially the shadows behind Steph and Cass.

He's not perfect but I think that he did a good job pulling from what was before, keeping in what DC wanted and also creating dynamics that will help push the series forward if DC let's it happen. Don't know if I'm in the small minority in this but I like Clayface (and Riddler for that matter) being good guys. Basil I always thought would work better as a heroic character over a villain just due to his shifting skills and he could actually be a character that works well with getting info and having a different set of powers. His relationship with Cass is something that I enjoy and I hope they keep him around as a hero after Tynion leaves. Steph, I can agree at times she came off weird, but I think a lot of that was trying to figure out how not to do her exactly as Dixion did, but not as mature as she was with Bryan.

Agreed. I do think that given time we might see a lot of those issues go away, especially given that the YJ series will have him in there and that he's going to play a larger part in it, so we may see him change to match some what of what the YJ version has him as. Also I wouldn't mind PAD coming back to do a YJ series with Tynion.

Very nice summary! The history of Steph fandom is complicated, and even now, there's some very significant splits between the Dixon fans, the Lewis fans, and the Batgirl fans (in terms of longtimers). I also do not look forward to a love triangle. I'm personally hoping that Tim and Cassie break up between seasons, but that probably won't happen.

I will say, after doing some rereading of Batman and Robin Eternal, Eaton's stuff looks much better here. That weekly schedule must have really come at a price. It's still not nearly as good as I'd hope for an issue this important - the designs are blocky and cartoony, but not in a complicated, appealing way like Rick Burchett, Scot McDaniel, Darwyn Cooke, or Shawn Martinborough. More like it's just that way because that's as far as Eaton's ability to go for detail goes.

The next art team is Miguel Mendonca for two issues, then Philippe Briones, who did most of the issues of the Fall of the Batmen arc (and Briones also did #979). Which were fine, but not really special. I'm pretty disappointed that Jamie Rich didn't either pull what Tynion did with Martinez for the Azrael arc, and give Hill and one art team enough time to get a full arc out, or even what they did for Victim Syndicate, and organize it so one artist does the first and last issues, and then you have one artist doing the middle three, giving it more artistic coherence. Or they could have just hired Pete Woods! That dude is AMAZING - he did 6 of 10 issues on a twice a month schedule for Justice League. I still don't know how he did it. And he was inking and coloring most of those too! Seriously, though. The Bat office needs to shape up their art teams for Detective much better, give the artists a sense of ownership rather than just rotating on whatever projects are free.

Basil is pretty dead, though...

I don't mind Clayface and other villains being at least not outright villains. But I think you have to be careful about doing it, otherwise you run out of villains.

[Caivu]

For anyone worried about Steph and Cass not getting the majority of page time, don't worry, they do.

spoilers:

They did indeed see their Batgirl selves, with a bunch of callbacks, I'm sure. I only recognized Cass touching the Batsymbol. No indication yet that they'll readopt either the names or looks, but Steph is turning the tables on Ulysses since he intended to show them that to emphasize how "terrible" they are now (something similar happened in Batwoman's series). And speaking of which, OMAC!Tim also gives a similar line when he tells Kate he's going to show her "exactly what [she's] going to become". It'll be interesting if that connection is made more explicit, since this has to be happening after her current arc is over. She was able to kick that sort of thing before while drugged out of her skull, so we'll see. No setup yet for why Azrael goes to JLO, which is what I was wanting. Next issue, I guess. Really interesting that the final issue is called "Rise of the Batmen."

end of spoilers

[millernumber1]

For anyone worried about Steph and Cass not getting the majority of page time, don't worry, they do.

spoilers:

They disld indeed see their Batgirl selves, with a bunch of callbacks, I'm sure. I only recognized Cass touching the Batsymbol. No indication yet that they'll readopt either the names or looks, but Steph is turning the tables on Ulysses since he intended to show them that to emphasize how "terrible" they are now (something similar happened in Batwoman's series). And speaking of which, OMAC!Tim also gives a similar line when he tells Kate he's going to show her "exactly what [she's] going to become". It'll be i teresting if that connection is made more explicit, since this has to be happening after her current arc is over. She was able to kick that sort of thing before while drugged out of her skull, so we'll see. Really interesting that the final issue is called "Rise of the Batmen."

end of spoilers

I wasn't really worried. But man. That was awesome (even with the Eaton art).

spoilers:

Not only were Steph and Cass's times as Batgirl honored (with an Oracle appearance!), but STEPH. AS. ROBIN. SMILING. It's everything! Tons of callbacks - I'm pretty sure Eaton referenced Steph as Robin from Batgirl #53 and Teen Titans #13. Cass got reading with Oracle memories, and hand to hand. The line "not an Orphan" seems to indicate that there's a place for Cass to add the Bat and a new name, but we'll have to wait and see on that. I'm curious to see if Kate can finally see if this future that Ulysses has been showing people is a lie or not.

end of spoilers

[Caivu]

spoilers:

I'm curious to see if Kate can finally see if this future that Ulysses has been showing people is a lie or not.

end of spoilers

I hope so. I really don't like either of the alternatives, but I also don't see how she'd be able to do that.

[AlvinDraper]

Oh gosh...reading the spoilers make me the HAPPIEST person in the world...I need to read this right now!