Man of Steel- Superman’s Flashpoint

[RepHope]

They’re not bringing back everything from Pre-Flashpoint. They’re picking and choosing what they want. As to why it’s because Rebirth is all about incorporating Pre-Flashpoint continuity back into canon. Johns wanted to do it, sales were dropping and needed a boost, and Dido & Lee were out of ideas.

[Rod G]

And how’s that working out? It’s been more than 18 months and right now DC sales, other than on Action #1000, are currently on a slump.

But if you want to keep your heads buried in the sand . . .

[manofsteel1979]

And how’s that working out? It’s been more than 18 months and right now DC sales, other than on Action #1000, are currently on a slump.

But if you want to keep your heads buried in the sand . . .

But sales were also in a slump during the last months of the New 52. Hense Rebirth, and now hense the No Justice/ Man of Steel initiative. Unfortunately the new initiative, sales spike, plateau, decline, next initiative etc. Cycle is the new normal in comics.

[Trunks]

But sales were also in a slump during the last months of the New 52. Hense Rebirth, and now hense the No Justice/ Man of Steel initiative. Unfortunately the new initiative, sales spike, plateau, decline, next initiative etc. Cycle is the new normal in comics.

This is absolutely true and I love reading from 1 poster to another poster how this initiative was terrible to another one when BOTH only work for a short time,and then on to something else

[Rod G]

This is absolutely true and I love reading from 1 poster to another poster how this initiative was terrible to another one when BOTH only work for a short time,and then on to something else

Can’t say there’s any denying that.

[RepHope]

There’s (imo) a 2 stage cycle to comics: Shake-up and then Staus Quo. The companies shake-up their characters by changing their origins, having an event, giving a mantle to a new character, radically changing the status quo of a familiar character, or in extreme cases, rebooting. This inevitably pisses people off and they leave but you also get readers coming in to check out what all the fuss is about. Sales will rise but inevitably fall again. Then comes status quo, where the radical change is undone or the new hero gives up the mantle for the returning old hero. Fans will return but you also lose fans of the new status quo. Sales rise and then fall again, until its time to shake things up again.

We just had 2 years of a mix of shake up and status quo with Rebirth: Lois and Clark married, Clark is the “traditional” Superman, But Lex is trying to be a good guy, Clark has a son Jon, and Lois and Clark were the Pre-Flashpoint versions. This followed up 5 years of pure shake up with New 52: Lois and Clark were not together, Clark had various other jobs besides working at the Daily Planet, Clark and Diana dated, Clark lost his powers and was weakened, his secret identity outed, etc. now with Bendis we’re getting some shake up again, we’ll see how that goes.

[RepHope]

This is absolutely true and I love reading from 1 poster to another poster how this initiative was terrible to another one when BOTH only work for a short time,and then on to something else

Yeah people forget, DC sales were in the toilet before the reboot. Multiple people have said the reboot was a financial success. I’d say Supes had not been good since Johns and Busiek left, although I’m sure others would dispute that, and I did love The Black Ring arc in Action Comics. But current Rebirth sales confirm that Truth: Lois and Clark married and happy doesn’t really interest people. Boyzarro Redeath, the finale arc, was a fantastic ending imo, but sales are all the way down in the lower 40k’s. A shake up was needed, I just hope Bendis can do a good job.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yeah people forget, DC sales were in the toilet before the reboot. Multiple people have said the reboot was a financial success. I’d say Supes had not been good since Johns and Busiek left, although I’m sure others would dispute that, and I did love The Black Ring arc in Action Comics. But current Rebirth sales confirm that Truth: Lois and Clark married and happy doesn’t really interest people. Boyzarro Redeath, the finale arc, was a fantastic ending imo, but sales are all the way down in the lower 40k’s. A shake up was needed, I just hope Bendis can do a good job.

Except the sales of Superman Rebirth remained high all throughout the first year, so I'd say Clark and Lois happily married is just as interesting as any other status quo for Superman. Plus, even now, 40k is actually a very respectable level for sales to be at in today's market, so its not like Superman's sales are in the toilet.

[Sacred Knight]

They're certainly not in the toilet. But they're certainly not high. And they certainly have not remained high. Its had its peaks and valleys just like every other run. Lots of liberties taken with the adjectives here.

The brutally honest and real take was manofsteel's. The Rebirth initiative went through the tried and true cycle, just like the stuff that preceded it. Just like what will proceed it.

[RepHope]

One point of concern is if the cycles are accelerating. I really hope they’re not, as that would be very bad.

[Last Son of Krypton]

They're certainly not in the toilet. But they're certainly not high. And they certainly have not remained high. Its had its peaks and valleys just like every other run. Lots of liberties taken with the adjectives here.

The brutally honest and real take was manofsteel's. The Rebirth initiative went through the tried and true cycle, just like the stuff that preceded it. Just like what will proceed it.

Yup, for example the latest issue sold a little less copies than the mismanaged New52 Superman book after the "crappy" Truth crossover draw readers away.

Rebirth's Superman #45 - 41,927

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-04.html

New52's Superman #45 - 42,693

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...5/2015-10.html

[Sacred Knight]

Pretty much the only constant is Batman if one is looking for a consistent high. Which is pretty sad, but that's the reality. If one is looking for evidence in the numbers that something is concretely more workable for Superman over what constitutes a "long-haul" time period for DC? You're not going to find it if you're looking with an unbiased eye. What you will find is a pretty steady pattern across all initiatives. Best just to enjoy what you have if what they're doing at the time is something you enjoy, rather worrying about trying to prove its empirically better.

[Minerboh]

Why?

Pre-Flashpoint was a mess.

Αnd Post-Flashpoint was a masterpiece i presume?

[Rod G]

Αnd Post-Flashpoint was a masterpiece i presume?

Compared to everything (with extremely few exceptions) that’s gone since 2000, yes.

[Soubhagya]

Pretty much the only constant is Batman if one is looking for a consistent high. Which is pretty sad, but that's the reality. If one is looking for evidence in the numbers that something is concretely more workable for Superman over what constitutes a "long-haul" time period for DC? You're not going to find it if you're looking with an unbiased eye. What you will find is a pretty steady pattern across all initiatives. Best just to enjoy what you have if what they're doing at the time is something you enjoy, rather worrying about trying to prove its empirically better.

That's the sad reality. Cycles. I was thinking about Ascended's opinion for sometime. Do reboots help? The first actual reboot was Byrne's Man of Steel. Before that when they had to change directions they tried it organically. Like Silver Age Superman was modified after 'Kryptonite Nevermore'. I have not read that stuff. But i think they did all the things they wanted naturally. Superman was powered down from the Silver Age style when he could juggle planets. The super pets were phased out. Lois personality was changed. The things they wanted to do in Post Crisis could have been done without throwing out everything.

Similar things could have been done with New-52. If they wanted a young and single Superman they could have done Superman 2000 in 2011. Changes that can be done can be done without reboots, which manage to divide fans a lot. Marvel has never done a reboot. For example, they wanted to get rid of Spider-man's marriage. They did 'One More Day'. It was not very well done. But i wonder if Spider-man titles suffered due to such things or improved.

Getting into extremes is a problem. You do Superman 2000. Remove the marriage. But keep Lois as the love interest. That was the idea of Superman 2000. To bring back the dynamic of pre-crisis. That way you don't alienate or anger old fans. They are definitely important. They have supported you so far. Then there are potential fans. Maybe doing that would help in getting new fans. A delicate balance has to be achieved to succeed. Easy to speak of this by myself. But its a tough ask. What i wonder is are people in charge even conscious of the need of this balance?

I do not think there is an easy answer. Before Man of Steel of Byrne, Superman titles were weak if i have understood it correctly. It brought new life to Superman while creating a division between Pre and Post Crisis fans which has not really healed till today. New-52 did bring new fans on board. But managed to divide Post Crisis and New 52 fans.

If anyone asks me this will continue. To rise up to the levels of Batman, Superman titles have to be really strong in quality over a sustained period of time. Plus, see success in other media. Batman has earned its fans going back to at least Dark Knight Returns and after. Whether that be Burton films, Batman TAS, Nolan films, acclaimed runs which i can track at least from Morrison. Followed by Snyder and then King. Batman does maintain a certain level irrespective of quality or reception.

I propose that instead of cycles like this, Rebirth style is the best. Everything has happened unless that's contradicted. Be conscious of fan's wishes and try to balance that with what you think is best for the future. A delicate job for sure.


And i would add that i don't think Superman titles were in any kind of crisis. But there is scope to improve.