After #FireRickRemender, Can We Have a Real Conversation?

[CBR News]

ROBOT 6 reflects on the recent social-media firestorm, and wonders whether we're capable of bypassing the name-calling to have a productive discussion.


Full article here.

[Double 0]

We can, but it matters how you go into that conversation and who you get into it with.

Some people are trolls. That's it. And some people get into it already ticked, unwilling to even hear the other side. It's going to be hard getting anything out of either.


However, if you find yourself unwilling to hear the other side, you may want to take some time to relax. Yes, some points may seem/be entirely invalid, but discussions are meant to be two way streets, listening and speaking.

[Mockingbird]

I think that Remender's response to criticism being telling someone to drown themselves in hobo piss shows the chance of any conversations. You can't have a conversation if a writer's response to criticism is to insult people and tell them to kill themselves.

[Doc Omega]

I didn't know he had said that. What an excellent example he sets as a representative of the company. Marvel must be proud

[ExcelsiorPrime]

Only when heavily moderated or anonymity is removed.

[Double 0]

Only when heavily moderated or anonymity is removed.

Honestly, this. That would remove the trolling out of it, which tends to ruin the discourse.

[Andy]

I think that Remender's response to criticism being telling someone to drown themselves in hobo piss shows the chance of any conversations. You can't have a conversation if a writer's response to criticism is to insult people and tell them to kill themselves.

Is this for real? I like Remender's work usually but this is supremely off putting. Lol at the guy writing Captain America being unwilling to rationally listen to someone's opinion.


Wow. The more I think about this the more disgusting it is. I may have to swear myself off his work for such a childish response.

[Jumpoff AKA JohnnyBlazed]

Is this for real? I like Remender's work usually but this is supremely off putting. Lol at the guy writing Captain America being unwilling to rationally listen to someone's opinion.


Wow. The more I think about this the more disgusting it is. I may have to swear myself off his work for such a childish response.

Eh there was more to it than just listening to someone's opinion, people(fans) feel like that can say whatever they want to a writer.

[ETMike1988]

Is this for real? I like Remender's work usually but this is supremely off putting. Lol at the guy writing Captain America being unwilling to rationally listen to someone's opinion.


Wow. The more I think about this the more disgusting it is. I may have to swear myself off his work for such a childish response.

Yep! He indeed did it!

[Rheged]

Wow. One post in and it immediately became about Remender instead of the problem with the work. I guess we can't have a real conversation.

[Lady Warp Spasm]

We can, but it matters how you go into that conversation and who you get into it with.

Some people are trolls. That's it. And some people get into it already ticked, unwilling to even hear the other side. It's going to be hard getting anything out of either.


However, if you find yourself unwilling to hear the other side, you may want to take some time to relax. Yes, some points may seem/be entirely invalid, but discussions are meant to be two way streets, listening and speaking.

Very sound post Double 0.

I think that Remender's response to criticism being telling someone to drown themselves in hobo piss shows the chance of any conversations. You can't have a conversation if a writer's response to criticism is to insult people and tell them to kill themselves.

Even if it was in jest (albeit very mean spirited), you're right. Criticism hurts, but I think the most powerful thing you can do when you're not a fan of a creator is simply not buy their product (as I am doing with Rick's product.) . If I must explain why I'm not a fan I am trying to do this with tact.

[hawkeyefan]

I honestly think that social media is to blame for a lot of this. Would this have been anywhere near the issue it was if people had to put pen to paper and write letters? Nope. All those who were "so offended" wouldn't have made more of an effort than 140 characters typed on their smartphone.

There's also this seeming PC generated movement where people seem to think that they are free from being offended. As if anything that could possibly be offensive to them absolutely cannot be tolerated. It's bizarre....especially related to a field such as comics, where you (generally) have to actively choose to be subjected to the material buy spending money on it.

I don't understand why Jackie or anyone else would still be reading a comic by a writer they claim to hate by the 22nd issue of that writer's run.

Again, it's bizarre.

[emac1790]

I honestly think that social media is to blame for a lot of this. Would this have been anywhere near the issue it was if people had to put pen to paper and write letters? Nope. All those who were "so offended" wouldn't have made more of an effort than 140 characters typed on their smartphone.

There's also this seeming PC generated movement where people seem to think that they are free from being offended. As if anything that could possibly be offensive to them absolutely cannot be tolerated. It's bizarre....especially related to a field such as comics, where you (generally) have to actively choose to be subjected to the material buy spending money on it.

I don't understand why Jackie or anyone else would still be reading a comic by a writer they claim to hate by the 22nd issue of that writer's run.

Again, it's bizarre.

Fan entitlement is a hell of a thing.

Fan#1- I'm emotionally invested in SuperCapeman. But the new writer writes stories I don't like and they offend me.
Fan#2- So, are you going to drop the book?
Fan#1- Why should I have to drop the book?
Fan#2- Well, you did say you don't like the writing and it offends you...
Fan#1- I've been reading SuperCapeman since I was 12. These stories should be written for the fans...
Fan#2- I don't understand where you're coming from...
Fan#1- I'm going to post a blog about how the writer should be fired because he/she doesn't listen to the fans and writes offensive things in the book...
Fan#2- Uh, ok. I have two things to say. What was so offensive in the book? And what may be offensive to you might not offend someone else.
Fan#1- The writer had SuperCapeman doing Meth...
Fan#2- Yeah,no. I read the book and I saw no such thing. It's fine to not like the way the writer does the book, but there is no need to lie about it. Maybe you should drop the book until another writer comes along. To call for someone's job over something that didn't happen in the book because you don't like the writer is wrong. And f.....
Fan#1- Oh, you're one of those people that thinks I should shut up and take it...
Fan#2- No. I'm saying if you don't like it, why buy it and read it?
Fan#1- You're a troll. I'm out of here!
Fan#2- ? What the hell just happened?

Not all conversations are like that, of course. But many end up this way.

[Iron Maiden]

Even if it was in jest (albeit very mean spirited), you're right. Criticism hurts, but I think the most powerful thing you can do when you're not a fan of a creator is simply not buy their product (as I am doing with Rick's product.) . If I must explain why I'm not a fan I am trying to do this with tact.

I don't really have that much of a dog in this fight and I can see why people have a writer they just don't like. For me it would be Fraction or Mark Millar (who doesn't have nor need all that much Marvel work these days anyway). But your last sentence is the one that is the most important. I did not see any of the posts about the Havoc speech on tumblr. Some of the posts here between posters were pretty heated on that. I know I would stir something up because I really thought even that fan frenzy was overdone. I happen to find the Havoc speech a refreshing after literally decades of the "woe is us" X-men stories. I'll prolly get trolled over that.

As much as I dislike a writer I would either....

1.Not write or post on their twitter at all.
2. If I did, I would try to use common courtesy usually found in adult conversation.

If any of you have been keeping up with Tom Brevoort's formspring now tumblr Q&A it's mind-boggling how insulting the questions are and those are probably the ones that aren't profanity laced.

John Byrne is probably one of the most controversial when it comes to dealing with trolls (or whoever offends him on any particular subject) but he can simply not give you an account on his forum or delete you after you've transgressed. Hickman was hilarious on his formspring and would toss around some pretty wicked replies too. He closed it down after a while though. I wouldn't blame any pro for severely limiting the interaction on social media after this latest Remender incident. I really liked that instant feedback you get from a writer/creator but if they have to put up with trolls I can't blame them for turning up the privacy settings as much as possible.

[MyriVerse]

I happen to find the Havoc speech a fit refreshing after literally decades of the "woe is us" X-men stories. I'll prolly get trolled over that.

This X-Fan agrees with you 100%.

So everything anyone has ever done should be held against them for their entire lives right? I have relatives and who have been convicted of crimes. They served their time and genuinely changed their lives. Yet they will forever have to deal with the consequences of what they did. They pay for their mistakes every single day of their lives. Its something about society I don't like. So when I see the same attitude being applied to what people say it bugs me even more. I hope you never have the misfortune of saying or doing something people find offensive because it will be held against you for your whole life. That's only fair right?

Difference, here, is that no time has been served, and I doubt any change has been made. To be honest, it does bug me a bit that he was not fired for that post.