After #FireRickRemender, Can We Have a Real Conversation?

[Exciter]

Rick is a very creative, antiestablishment kind of guy. He is bombarded with vocal negativity on social media. Do we really want a corporate yes man who says please and thank you when being insulted like some public relations suit? He’s a real guy, and his hobo piss comment was made months ago on twitter – not in a press release.

[Conway]

There are always some people that will construe a criticism into the most negative light possible. There are also people that can't take criticism. RR was trolled and he responded in a really bad way. It doesn't mean you can't have a discussion, it just means that while you have that discussion it's possible the other person or someone else will react in such an extreme fashion that the only real option is to stop responding to them.

[Exciter]

So I missed all this controversy, but reading the link, and the links in the linked article, it seems to be pretty much:

Some readers mistakenly thought that Remender had written Falcon sleeping with an underage girl. Some tumblr social justice warriors picked up on this and, as usual, wrote angry tumblr blogs about the racist, sexist, ablist, cis-privileged, heteronormative, misogyny of it all and demanded Remender be fired. Remender got pissed off with people trying to get him fired due to their inability to read some text in a comic and told them to drown themselves.

Is that about right?

Not quite. The Hobo Piss comment was made months and months ago to people complaining about a speech Havoc gave. To my knowledge, Rick has not said anything like that regarding the pseudo-rape controversy.

So how old is Jet? I never knew she had an exact age

She was established as at least 23 in the same issue, though there is no way she could have possibly been below 17 (which is the age of consent in New York). Ian, a separate character and her brother, was the one who was 14 when Cap left Dimension Z. Completely different individual.

[Doc Omega]

Honestly I never even formed an opinion about this situation. I've never liked Rick's work, but I never wanted him fired either. So I had stayed out of this

[Doc Omega]

She was established as at least 23 in the same issue, though there is no way she could have possibly been below 17 (which is the age of consent in New York). Ian, a separate character and her brother, was the one who was 14 when Cap left Dimension Z. Completely different individual.

Thanks,I thought she had to be an adult

[Mikekerr3]

So I missed all this controversy, but reading the link, and the links in the linked article, it seems to be pretty much:

Some readers mistakenly thought that Remender had written Falcon sleeping with an underage girl. Some tumblr social justice warriors picked up on this and, as usual, wrote angry tumblr blogs about the racist, sexist, ablist, cis-privileged, heteronormative, misogyny of it all and demanded Remender be fired. Remender got pissed off with people trying to get him fired due to their inability to read some text in a comic and told them to drown themselves.

Is that about right?

Seems like a mixture of a storm in a teacup and tumblr being tumblr. Nothing to see here, surely?

You are getting two separate events confused RR told people to kill themselves after people criticized him a dumb, somewhat hateful and clumsy speech He had Havoc give, that after RR had made a point of saying that Havok was his POV character.

#FireRickRemender came about becasue some twitter activists and a blogger have trouble reading what is on the pages of the book they were commenting on.

They are two separate issues

[Doc Omega]

I don't really care about most of this. As long as Jet is over 18, that ends it for me

As far as his writing goes, I am not a fan. Does that mean he should be criticized or fired> Of course not

[Fabulous Houseboat]

One thing I'll say about this is that while the criticism of Remender and his story was clearly misguided and based on a misunderstanding of what actually happened on the page, Remender still has a responsibility as a public figure to engage in civil discourse. I am not going to say the the #FireRickRemender campaign was right; they were spreading misinformation--mostly out of ignorance, but I'm willing to bet at some points knowingly. Remender has ever right to be upset by that (or by being called out for that Havok stuff--which to my mind was an entirely valid criticism). What he does not have a right to do is respond with such malice. He--and his defenders--have a responsibility to either engage with the issue in good faith or to ignore it. In the case of the Havok stuff, he had a responsibility to the former approach--not tell comics fans who disagree with him to drown themselves in hobo piss. In the case of the Captain America outrage, he probably should have just said nothing and let it blow over, or make a small statement that addresses the fact that the campaign was based on a misrepresentation of what had actually happened. Yes, he's a person, yes he's allowed to react and be upset, but as a public figure, the way he behaved was absolutely reprehensible.

[Exciter]

In the case of the Captain America outrage, he probably should have just said nothing and let it blow over, or make a small statement that addresses the fact that the campaign was based on a misrepresentation of what had actually happened.

That's what he did. I don't think he's said anything publicly about the Captain America outrage.

[emac1790]

Rick is a very creative, antiestablishment kind of guy. He is bombarded with vocal negativity on social media. Do we really want a corporate yes man who says please and thank you when being insulted like some public relations suit? He’s a real guy, and his hobo piss comment was made months ago on twitter – not in a press release.

I didn't agree with Alex's "don't call me the M word" speech. I didn't agree with the "hobo piss" remark (On the account that who the hell says "hobo" anymore?). But I do understand the reason for the hobo remark.

Pick a thread on this board. There is at least one comment in the thread that is borderline insulting to a creator. And the only reason it's borderline is because the mods are harder on that type of thing after the reboot. A lot of posters here can be looked at having the classic fan entitlement and feel that since they are the customer, they are always right. And since they feel they're always right, they feel that they can talk about a comic book company and their creators anyway they want to (calling for someone to be fired over a story you didn't like is below contempt. And yes that whole "#FireRickRemender" thing is below contempt because people wanted him fired for him having Sam engaging in underage sex when that didn't happen. At all. For crap's sake, Jet says she's 23 on the same page!). The thing with that is, they forget that they are talking about other human beings. And all human beings have a limit for the shit that they can take. When the creators lash out (right or wrong), all of a sudden, these (for lack of a better word) fanboys start crying. Remember "if you can't take it, don't dish it out".

This is where I usually say "don't like it, don't buy it", but apparently offends people that are looking to be offended.

[Punisher007]

In the case of UA, Remender probably overreacted. But in the case of the Falcon thing, no he and Marvel are under absolutely no obligation to be respectful. Their "critics" in that case were blatantly ignoring what was on the page and making crap up just to turn people against Remender. That's not respectful criticism or a valid critique, that's lying to people to make them hate someone. So Marvel has no obligation to be respectful to those people because those people showed no respect to their target, who they basically accused of being a racist, misogynist, and condoning statutory rape. I'd be even less kind to people who accused me of that than Marvel/Remender have been. I have issues with Remender's writing as well, I don't hate his work but he's not one of my favorites either, but if I'm going to criticize him then I'm going to make sure that the criticism is actually over a valid issue.

[JediMindTrick]

Wait this erupted in controversy but the most people could do when thirtysomething Pete Wisdom was sleeping with fifteen year old Kitty Pryde was yawn? (Kitty had her 15th birthday on page before the relationship started and her 16th birthday referenced on page after the relationship ended).

[Doc Omega]

Wait this erupted in controversy but the most people could do when thirtysomething Pete Wisdom was sleeping with fifteen year old Kitty Pryde was yawn? (Kitty had her 15th birthday on page before the relationship started and her 16th birthday referenced on page after the relationship ended).

I wasn't aware of that. When did it happen?

[Fabulous Houseboat]

That's what he did. I don't think he's said anything publicly about the Captain America outrage.

I think you might be right. I meant to extend that to his defenders as well, some of whom (like Brubaker) said some pretty gross stuff. I would say that the same rules apply regardless. If you're a public figure, you have a certain responsibility to respond tactfully. Whatever the case, it's good to know that Remender seems to have learned from what happened last time.

I do think that the way more and more internet-based news sources rely on clickbait headlines plays a big, big role in this. It moves us all away from a more nuanced conversation and toward a "discourse" that is but a chain of knee-jerk reactions.

[Fabulous Houseboat]

I didn't agree with Alex's "don't call me the M word" speech. I didn't agree with the "hobo piss" remark (On the account that who the hell says "hobo" anymore?). But I do understand the reason for the hobo remark.

Pick a thread on this board. There is at least one comment in the thread that is borderline insulting to a creator. And the only reason it's borderline is because the mods are harder on that type of thing after the reboot. A lot of posters here can be looked at having the classic fan entitlement and feel that since they are the customer, they are always right. And since they feel they're always right, they feel that they can talk about a comic book company and their creators anyway they want to (calling for someone to be fired over a story you didn't like is below contempt. And yes that whole "#FireRickRemender" thing is below contempt because people wanted him fired for him having Sam engaging in underage sex when that didn't happen. At all. For crap's sake, Jet says she's 23 on the same page!). The thing with that is, they forget that they are talking about other human beings. And all human beings have a limit for the shit that they can take. When the creators lash out (right or wrong), all of a sudden, these (for lack of a better word) fanboys start crying. Remember "if you can't take it, don't dish it out".

This is where I usually say "don't like it, don't buy it", but apparently offends people that are looking to be offended.

In the case of UA, Remender probably overreacted. But in the case of the Falcon thing, no he and Marvel are under absolutely no obligation to be respectful. Their "critics" in that case were blatantly ignoring what was on the page and making crap up just to turn people against Remender. That's not respectful criticism or a valid critique, that's lying to people to make them hate someone. So Marvel has no obligation to be respectful to those people because those people showed no respect to their target, who they basically accused of being a racist, misogynist, and condoning statutory rape. I'd be even less kind to people who accused me of that than Marvel/Remender have been. I have issues with Remender's writing as well, I don't hate his work but he's not one of my favorites either, but if I'm going to criticize him then I'm going to make sure that the criticism is actually over a valid issue.

Creators have an obligation to be respectful, no matter how terrible or wrongheaded the criticism. Remender has every right to express his frustration in his private life, but as a public figure, he owes it to the public to maintain a certain level of discourse.