After #FireRickRemender, Can We Have a Real Conversation?

[scusemeprincess]

He thought he was telling off racists. His apology made it pretty clear that he genuinely didn't expect the objections that were raised. He wasn't telling off people that he thought had missed the point of the speech.

pretty sure he was telling off the superfans who instantly spat vitriol and took offense at a comic that used an MLK idea intending the very opposite.
that's how i took it. what racists do you mean?

[Fabulous Houseboat]

you are.
what it is, is that as soon as you get specific about this metaphor, that may apply to your life (or may not), you lose track of the universal theme and your argument usually comes at the expense of the story the books are actually telling. there's just no need to veer like that.

Or it could be read as an attempt to universalize the experiences of a particular group or groups that are marginalized and generally thought of as "other." In this way, yes, there are themes in the X-books that feel universal, but it is an attempt to create empathy for groups unlike our own (generally, in terms of comics, white males).

[scusemeprincess]

Or it could be read as an attempt to universalize the experiences of a particular group or groups that are marginalized and generally thought of as "other." In this way, yes, there are themes in the X-books that feel universal, but it is an attempt to create empathy for groups unlike our own (generally, in terms of comics, white males).

groups unlike our own = any outsider ever

[Tiamatty]

see that has nothing to do with the mutants in the fictional superhero universe. when in doubt, do not sub in a completely different word with a completely different meaning, you end up losing your point.

Except that, since mutants are a metaphor for downtrodden groups, it absolutely applies. In the fictional context, you can't talk about government programs that oppress mutants if you're only allowed to talk about they affect Alex.

pretty sure he was telling off the superfans who instantly spat vitriol and took offense at a comic that used an MLK idea intending the very opposite.
that's how i took it. what racists do you mean?

The impression I got was that he was referring to people who discriminate against minority groups.

[scusemeprincess]

Except that, since mutants are a metaphor for downtrodden groups, it absolutely applies. In the fictional context, you can't talk about government programs that oppress mutants if you're only allowed to talk about they affect Alex.

good thing alex didn't propose that the government never use the word while it tries to legislate for its citizens.

The impression I got was that he was referring to people who discriminate against minority groups.[/QUOTE]

very possible. i'd prefer it if he was focusing on the craziest of fans, but you may be right.

[Iron Maiden]

See, the "call me Alex" part is one of the things that angered people most. I think it, more than anything, hammered in the idea of assimilation. He said, "Don't call us mutants," despite 'mutants' long being considered the acceptable term to refer to people possessing an active X-gene, and the term they've always referred to themselves as. When a reporter asked which term Alex believed would be acceptable for referring to X-gene-active people as a group, his response was "none." He was saying that there is absolutely no acceptable term to use when speaking about the portion of the population that possesses an active X-gene. The fact that it's actually impossible to talk about the struggles a group faces if you forbid any words that refer to the group as a whole is ignored in favour of a cute one-liner.

So people didn't ignore the "call me Alex" bit. People hated that line.

Really?? IMO that is really a gigantic leap from "How about calling me Alex" to assimilation. If I were to express how I thought about this hatred it might come out like the hobo piss line. So you thought it was just a cute one liner? I thought it was about a character expressing their feelings.

There is at least one X Fan that I'm surprised hasn't posted any more in this thread that insists that Jan because has used the term "the mutants" in some dialogue in UA that she is a racist. I guess you can't please everyone.

[Fabulous Houseboat]

Which is part of what I tried to say earlier with the homeless. Not all white straight males are "privileged". In the Deep South, in West Virginia coal mining towns there can be poverty, etc. As one of 10 children in a lower middle class family, I didn't feel privileged. The struggles are the same, but I am aware that there are barriers for minorities that a white poor family may not have. And sometimes vice versa. But that's too controversial for this discussion.

Accepted but like I said, I just don't like the term itself.

Privilege isn't all-or-nothing. There are still privileges that come along with, say, whiteness, that extend even to homeless white males, who, for instance, may be privileged over homeless POC in certain circumstances. The existence of white privilege, or straight privilege, or male privilege -- none of those things prevent straight white men from experiencing poverty. It just means that a.) they have advantages that others do not, and that b.) their experience of poverty is going to be different than, for example, a trans woman's experience of poverty. The concept of privilege is much more complicated than "I'm a straight white male so I have it better than everyone else," and if there are people who treat it that way, that's unfortunate. But that doesn't stop it from being an important and useful concept to engage with.

[Mark]

again, the decision to decide this was an offensive call for assimilation is just fine, just don't kid yourself that the comic or remender or anyone else was ever involved in that outcome. that's all you.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

[Tiamatty]

good thing alex didn't propose that the government never use the word while it tries to legislate for its citizens.

Right, he just said that "mutant" was an inherently offensive word and that he doesn't want anyone using it. More specifically, he was actually telling the press not to use the word - you know, the people who would actually bring to the public's attention any policies that would have a negative effect on mutants. So if the government tries to pass an updated Mutant Registration Act, should the media be calling it a "registration act for people like Alex"? If mutants want to hold a pride parade, will it have to be the "People like Alex Pride Parade"?

That's what makes the comment so mind-numbingly stupid. He tells people that a word is offensive, and then doesn't give people an alternative word to use. And he does this right after referring to a "mutant cult." Maybe there were worse ways to make his point, but it's hard to think of any.

[Iron Maiden]

Privilege isn't all-or-nothing. There are still privileges that come along with, say, whiteness, that extend even to homeless white males, who, for instance, may be privileged over homeless POC in certain circumstances. The existence of white privilege, or straight privilege, or male privilege -- none of those things prevent straight white men from experiencing poverty. It just means that a.) they have advantages that others do not, and that b.) their experience of poverty is going to be different than, for example, a trans woman's experience of poverty.

Somehow I think living on lower Wacker Drive is not a picnic no matter who you are so we will just have to disagree on that one. I know someone who just became homeless and she is a white female over age 50. She's not exactly rolling in privileges right now and is sleeping on my couch.

[Mark]

Uncanny Avengers was a book predestined and I believe predetermined to be controversial. It deliberately tried to bring the anti-mutant racism in the mu into the open and try to deal with it in a micro/individual way, but the writing was in my opinion too clumsy. Every page of every issue I read was full of forced, contrived and predictable situations. There was no mystery that Rogue and Wanda were going to hug when the story arc was all over. That was the entire point, to mine the differences and hard feelings between them -even though there weren't any to begin with- to produce controversy to get peoples attention and thereby sales. It wasn't Remender's best work and his speech with Havok was just a part of that bad writing. That's far different from the controversy that lead to the call for him to be fired. I haven't read that and I don't know the characters, but I wonder is some of the anger is just a carry over from the bad writing of UA? An author can get on a fans badside with a bad story about a favorite character, I think there's a whole bunch of people who don't like Bendis based on what he did to Wanda and Tigra. It's easy to get angry, it's hard to calm down.

[Mikekerr3]

it's not impossible to talk about alex's struggles. or anyone else.
not using the word doesn't mean everyone forgets it exists and what it means. it's like you're intentionally not bothering to think about the point. pretty obtuse.

If you can't use the name of the group you are discussion how do you have discusions at all. He conflated a group name for themselves with an obscenity.

pretty sure he was telling off the superfans who instantly spat vitriol and took offense at a comic that used an MLK idea intending the very opposite.
that's how i took it. what racists do you mean?

He did so BEFORE people start spouting vitrol at him, they were just complaining about one of his charactes stupidly said. He took it perosnall, that happens with writer self--ibserts, anger at the charactgers stupidity was interpreted by him as an attack on himself

[Tiamatty]

Really?? IMO that is really a gigantic leap from "How about calling me Alex" to assimilation. If I were to express how I thought about this hatred it might come out like the hobo piss line. So you thought it was just a cute one liner? I thought it was about a character expressing their feelings.

There is at least one X Fan that I'm surprised hasn't posted any more in this thread that insists that Jan because has used the term "the mutants" in some dialogue in UA that she is a racist. I guess you can't please everyone.

The "call me Alex" part came at the end of a whole speech about "mutant cults" and "mutant is an offensive word." The whole thing had undertones suggesting that a mutant community was a bad thing. It's not actually a big stretch to interpret his speech as a call for assimilation, and in-universe, a lot of people probably would've heard it that way, too, most of all young mutants who were already scared of what they are. Alex, speaking as a representative of the mutant community (whether he sees it that way or not), was saying that being called a mutant is a bad thing. The implication is that self-identifying as a mutant is also bad. Someone in a delicate mental state is going to see "being called a mutant is bad" and hear "being a mutant is bad."

Yes, I'm saying that Alex is responsible for at least a few mutant suicides. We'll never see that mentioned in a comic, because holy shit that's dark even for Remender, but logically, it happened.

[Fabulous Houseboat]

Somehow I think living on lower Wacker Drive is not a picnic no matter who you are so we will just have to disagree on that one. I know someone who just became homeless and she is a white female over age 50. She's not exactly rolling in privileges right now and is sleeping on my couch.

Again, I think you misunderstand how privilege works. I am not saying a white woman who is homeless has all the privilege, I'm saying she likely has certain privileges that a person of color who is homeless may not have. It's like everyone has a key ring full of keys. Privilege isn't saying, hey, all straight white males have a key to executive washroom. There's a nearly infinite number of keys to a nearly infinite number of doors. Some of the keys open some doors, some open others. Some keys are shared by all or most members of one group, some keys are held on to by only a very, very select few. Not all white people have all the exact same keys, but there's probably a lot of overlap, you know? Privilege is a matrix of interrelated factors, including but not limited to gender, race, sexuality, class, age, social status, education, and so on. Those factors and more all affect privilege.

Also, I'm sorry to hear that your friend is having a difficult time right now. I wish her nothing but the best in getting back on her feet.

[oldforce]

Just caught up to this thread and wanted to make a quick point re: Uncanny Avengers. I think the main fault I find with Remender's treatment of Havok's speech is he maybe didn't understand the responsibility (something about great power . . .) that comes when writing fiction related to an already loaded concept of mutants in the Marvel Universe. I'm sure he had an understanding as a fan that it was of considerable weight (and his interviews support this), but his emotional reaction via twitter suggests the huge surprise to him.

It was kind of a huge surprise to me as well because I read it as a "Let's get together hu-mutanity, in spite of our considerable differences!". The assimilation suggested, which is there to my eye, came in the context of super-powered people. Not as a way of saying "difference should be obliterated to conform to dominant paradigms", but as a way of saying "this slur you use to separate us as unequal shouldn't hold that power". So I saw it as super progressive. Obviously the significance is super messy.

To me, it is almost impossible to have this speech by Havok *at all* and not run into a diffusion of meaning as it relates to the world, since we all consume this thing called comics together and we all want a certain thing out of what we read. See Roland Barthes h/t Roland Barthes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pleasure_of_the_Text