After #FireRickRemender, Can We Have a Real Conversation?

[Tiamatty]

Tiamatty and tacobongo are absolutely spot-on. Keep it up guys.

Scusemeprincess and Oldforce are absolutely spot-on - keep it up, guys! =)

ShaokhaN and L.R Johansson are absolutely spot-on - keep it up, guys!


Especially ShaokhaN, because anyone who agrees with me automatically becomes right. Which, conveniently enough, also makes me right. Hey, I don't make the rules.

[Joe Acro]

This is a thread about the #FireRickRemender controversy, which was centered on the events of Captain America #22 and specifically on the sexual relationship of Falcon and Jet Black. While I know the controversy around Uncanny Avengers colors some people's perception of Rick Remender, that does not mean that this thread is the proper place to debate the merits or detriments of Havok's speech in Uncanny Avengers. Please take that conversation elsewhere.

[LeonardEugenius]

I believe this is a thread about the interactions between fans and creators and a more positive way to air the concerns of each side, i.e. having a real conversation. It seems to me that a lot of people are trying to engage in positive conversation and actually hear the other side. I don't understand why positive discourse would be stifled, especially when the Uncanny Avengers incident is mentioned in the article. Are only certain parts of the article up for discussion?

[emac1790]

Not now no, but I left this board a while back because of that just that. I can't name names but this was a very vicious, very petty place and I still have trouble thinking of it as any other way. The hell I was put though on this board left me with severe depression and fleeting thoughts of ending it all.

I had no idea. That is terrible. It sounds that you have recovered from that, which is a good thing. Heated debate is one thing, but dog piling someone on the 'net is wrong. I sincerely hope that these posters no longer gives you grief.

[Joe Acro]

I believe this is a thread about the interactions between fans and creators and a more positive way to air the concerns of each side, i.e. having a real conversation. It seems to me that a lot of people are trying to engage in positive conversation and actually hear the other side. I don't understand why positive discourse would be stifled, especially when the Uncanny Avengers incident is mentioned in the article. Are only certain parts of the article up for discussion?

Oh, I'm not saying you can't discuss the Uncanny Avengers incident. I know it's mentioned in the article. I understand its relevance to this situation, its similarity to the current controversy in some regards, and its affect on people's perception of Rick Remender. The thread had turned to a lengthy back-and-forth over Havok's speech, what it means, and if it's a good viewpoint. That's a tangential conversation that I think deserves its own thread.

[hawkeyefan]

This is a thread about the #FireRickRemender controversy, which was centered on the events of Captain America #22 and specifically on the sexual relationship of Falcon and Jet Black. While I know the controversy around Uncanny Avengers colors some people's perception of Rick Remender, that does not mean that this thread is the proper place to debate the merits or detriments of Havok's speech in Uncanny Avengers. Please take that conversation elsewhere.

Actually, I think it says a lot that the Falcon/Jet "controversy" was quickly set aside to go back to the Havok speech. I think that's the root cause of many readers' issues with Remender and they simply used the Falcon/Jef thing as an excuse to go after him again.

[Star_Jammer]

Actually, I think it says a lot that the Falcon/Jet "controversy" was quickly set aside to go back to the Havok speech. I think that's the root cause of many readers' issues with Remender and they simply used the Falcon/Jef thing as an excuse to go after him again.

Everything about Rick Rememender comes back to the Havok speech, nowadays...

Everything.

People on this board just...latch.

[Mikekerr3]

Actually, I think it says a lot that the Falcon/Jet "controversy" was quickly set aside to go back to the Havok speech. I think that's the root cause of many readers' issues with Remender and they simply used the Falcon/Jef thing as an excuse to go after him again.

I agree rthe Falcon?jet controversy was just a dishonest blogger going for shock effect, there is not much to discuss if that is the only topic. Why people were so ready to jump on RR is a related topic though

[LeonardEugenius]

There are plenty of grievances to air against a certain writer. What's important is that people not try to dismiss anyone's concern right off the bat for a "variety" of reasons. We could talk about calling Sunfire a walking atom bomb, his fascination with impaling female characters, his less than delicate handling of Daken's sexuality, Iron Nail, the implications of the "M" word a la the "N" word, making the POC in Secret Avengers disappear without reason only to replace them with straight, white males, etc. So the defense of "everything comes back to UA" is false.

[Dabrikishaw]

I think that Remender's response to criticism being telling someone to drown themselves in hobo piss shows the chance of any conversations. You can't have a conversation if a writer's response to criticism is to insult people and tell them to kill themselves.

This. It's ultimately more about how writers choose to confront fan criticism in this industry.

That being said I'm actually on Marvel's side here. No one looks good when they spread false information just to stir up support for their side and that's exactly what #FIRERICKREMENDER did.

[hawkeyefan]

There are plenty of grievances to air against a certain writer. What's important is that people not try to dismiss anyone's concern right off the bat for a "variety" of reasons. We could talk about calling Sunfire a walking atom bomb, his fascination with impaling female characters, his less than delicate handling of Daken's sexuality, Iron Nail, the implications of the "M" word a la the "N" word, making the POC in Secret Avengers disappear without reason only to replace them with straight, white males, etc. So the defense of "everything comes back to UA" is false.

I'm not saying that it's a defense that everything comes back to the speech, just that in this case that is what happened because the Jet Black age controversy was pretty much fabricated.

As for the other items you point out...I don't know if most of them even come close to being as controversial as the speech. I also think that most of them are pretty minor concerns when you look at each. They just help pad the list of reasons to dislike him.

[Username taken]

There are plenty of grievances to air against a certain writer. What's important is that people not try to dismiss anyone's concern right off the bat for a "variety" of reasons. We could talk about calling Sunfire a walking atom bomb, his fascination with impaling female characters, his less than delicate handling of Daken's sexuality, Iron Nail, the implications of the "M" word a la the "N" word, making the POC in Secret Avengers disappear without reason only to replace them with straight, white males, etc. So the defense of "everything comes back to UA" is false.

Agreed.

However, civil discourse is key. Lots of the issues you raised above are legitimate concerns but it becomes problematic when some people (not you in particular as you've been extremely polite) just say "Iron Nail", Remender is racist, "Daken" Remender is homophobic.

As we've all discussed several times on these boards, there are pretty serious allegations and must not be made lightly. If there are issues like that, some form of civil discourse and clear explanations must be given. The blogger who started the fire Remender campaign noted all these issues and then the rape issue which she still noted wasn't true BUT STILL insisted Remender be fired. That's not how to approach these sort of issues.

[Star_Jammer]

There are plenty of grievances to air against a certain writer. What's important is that people not try to dismiss anyone's concern right off the bat for a "variety" of reasons. We could talk about calling Sunfire a walking atom bomb, his fascination with impaling female characters, his less than delicate handling of Daken's sexuality, Iron Nail, the implications of the "M" word a la the "N" word, making the POC in Secret Avengers disappear without reason only to replace them with straight, white males, etc. So the defense of "everything comes back to UA" is false.

You may very well be right.

But which of these gets referenced to the most?

That's right...latch.

[Rochedalaix]

Conversation about what?

[TresDias]

I like Remender's writing even if I've found it and his behavior to be baffling more than once. It's engaging and he comes up with great ideas. Even what he was going for with the Havok speech was a great idea, but it was executed terribly. It's ironic that Bendis -- whose writing I usually can't stand -- got what was so wrong with it.

To elaborate on that, coming together and being one people does not mean we should -- or even can -- "ignore labels." It means we embrace the differences in one another, not overlook them or tolerate them. It means legitimately valuing the differences of people who aren't like you. The reason Havok's speech wasn't well received among many people, especially minorities, is that the things we don't have in common with others are as vital and important to who we all are as the things we do share in common. What sets us apart is as important to identity as the things that don't, whether that be race, taste in music, talents, language or anything else.

I have a fairly privileged (yes, I'm using that word) position to view this from as I'm half-Mexican but look White. I have some Hispanic traits that may become apparent after a person knows what they're looking for, but in my entire life (I'll be 28 next month), I've only had one person ever clue in to the fact that I'm Hispanic without being told. Once. Ever. I've even had a manager at a previous job call me into the office a year after I was hired to ask if I put myself down as "Hispanic" on my application in the hopes of getting an interview. They even straight-up asked "Did you play us?" That was both uncomfortable and annoying.

Being that I identify as Hispanic, I've often wished this stark contrast wasn't the case, though I'm well aware that my appearance has benefitted me.

Anyway, I know what Remender's intention was when he wrote that, and I've never been angry at him about it. Even as I read it I knew what his intention was, even though the wording was heartbreakingly off the mark. I do think he should have been given more benefit of the doubt, but he also handled himself poorly not just in writing that scene but in how he responded to those who took issue with it. I like to think that he's learned from both the poor writing and the poor handling of that incident, though, and that we could, indeed, have a real conversation with Rick Remender at this stage in the game.

As for stuff like this #FireRickRemender controversy, that should never have happened. I can understand that there were a few people confused by the error in the recap of issue #4 referring to both Jet and Ian as infants, but, really, anyone who read even just issue #1 should have been able to see that Jet was no infant there, despite Romita Jr.'s major shortcomings in the depiction of anyone who isn't an adult. Even without all that, Jet herself stating her age in issue #22 should have put the matter to rest before it could ever be a thing.

To bring this brief round of musings full circle with the topic of the thread, I think we certainly can have a real conversation, and not just with Rick Remender, but with anyone we're willing to have a conversation with. In this age of Twitter and tumblr, though, people don't always want to have a real conversation. They want to get others incensed and rally them into sharing an opinion.

That's what I believe happened with this #FireRickRemender thing. It began with one person who not only isn't a fan of Remender, but passionately dislikes him for reasons all their own. They were given an easy opportunity to turn the tide of public opinion against him and hopefully achieve what they wanted -- i.e. Rick Remender unemployed.

Maliciousness such as that is shocking to imagine, and I hate to conclude it to be the case, but, as others have noted in this very thread, the Internet has a startling way of dehumanizing us. Not just in how we see others, but in how we ourselves behave. It's somehow easier for many people to be cold in cyberspace, where, in speaking to or of another person, we aren't unavoidably confronted with things that remind us of all-too-human traits such as anxiety, pain and fear.

Again, yes, we can have a real conversation as long as we remember that it's other human beings -- with all their similarities to us and all their differences -- we are talking to.