After #FireRickRemender, Can We Have a Real Conversation?

[ExcelsiorPrime]

RR wrote under his own name, so anonymity is not all of the problem.

Has anyone seen any of the supposed insults that were posted BEFORE he told readers to kill themselves?

No Anonymity for all who post. Not just the creator. Also Heavy Moderation.

[Fabulous Houseboat]

Is there some kind of decorum clause in his contract? If not, then he's under no obligation. And if so, it'd be his job's duty to reprimand him.

I think I'm going to bow out of this discussion then, because it doesn't seem like we're going to come to an agreement. Thanks for engaging with me.

[emac1790]

Okay, so let me pose the question this way: I agree, he's not a politician or a diplomat. However, he still occupies the public sphere. He represents not only himself as a writer, but the book(s) he writes and the company that signs his paychecks. Also, to a large extent, he represents his fans. Given all that, does he still only have an obligation only to himself and to his emotional responses?

I totally disagree with that. First and foremost, he represents himself and then his family and friends. Then next is the company that cuts his checks, but only to a certain extent being that he only works for them and is not their slave. IMO, fans are not part of the equation. So to answer your question, he only has an obligation to himself and the people he cares about. Not some random fan that he will most likely never met or know.

[Fabulous Houseboat]

I think you misunderstood me. Regardless, I don't get the impression that we're going to come to agreement on this, so let's just agree to disagree and move on shall we?

[Moriarty]

other than writing comics from Marvel, Remender is under no obligation. he doesn't owe anyone anything. certainly not his fans. nor does he represent his fans. he can say whatever he wants. and of course, if Marvel does not like what he says then he can be fired. clearly, Marvel has no problem with it. these things can get people in trouble of course. Jason Biggs was replaced on TMNT for apparently running his mouth on Twitter.

[emac1790]

I think you misunderstood me. Regardless, I don't get the impression that we're going to come to agreement on this, so let's just agree to disagree and move on shall we?

Alright, that's fine. One last question though, if you feel like answering. How did I misunderstand you?

[Username taken]

In the case of UA, Remender probably overreacted. But in the case of the Falcon thing, no he and Marvel are under absolutely no obligation to be respectful. Their "critics" in that case were blatantly ignoring what was on the page and making crap up just to turn people against Remender. That's not respectful criticism or a valid critique, that's lying to people to make them hate someone. So Marvel has no obligation to be respectful to those people because those people showed no respect to their target, who they basically accused of being a racist, misogynist, and condoning statutory rape. I'd be even less kind to people who accused me of that than Marvel/Remender have been. I have issues with Remender's writing as well, I don't hate his work but he's not one of my favorites either, but if I'm going to criticize him then I'm going to make sure that the criticism is actually over a valid issue.

Quoted for truth.

One can dislike Remender's work but to throw allegations of very serious issues (racism, rape) and trying to get him fired is unacceptable.

There are plenty of creators who's work I dislike and I simply don't read their books.

[ExcelsiorPrime]

Quoted for truth.

One can dislike Remender's work but to throw allegations of very serious issues (racism, rape) and trying to get him fired is unacceptable.

There are plenty of creators who's work I dislike and I simply don't read their books.

But was that against Remender or Falcon?

The same was said about Wolverine and Squirrel Girl (subtext of rape) but it was done more humorously than actually calls for firing on the basis of supporting an illegal act.

So I stand corrected.

[Rheged]

Yes. The new trend, especially on these forums is to try and be righteous but passive aggressive in an effort to get others angry enough to get banned. I have severe issues with another person calling me "honey, sweetie, baby" (not ok from either a female or male, but imo it is a direct effort to incite when one male says it to another) when they respond or seeing people who have trolled me always viewing my profile and responding to posts, yet never directly referencing said posts so they do not get banned. This is only here, you open it up to a world of people, especially on areas where the creator may not even know exist and have an effort to get someone to lose their livelihood...it would never happen if you had to post your picture and real name. Honestly, I would not even be on these boards either if that were the see case just because of career and family concerns.
In direct regard to Jet, it said her age right on the page, I do not get how someone could be confused.

You noticed that too. I guess people want their little victories in life. It's petty. State your opinion, agree or disagree, and move on. It's not like you get money for "winning" a debate on comic book massage board.

Thirded. But they are pretty obvious in their attempts to get others banned.

[Moriarty]

There are plenty of creators who's work I dislike and I simply don't read their books.

same here. i don't like Mark Millar at all. you know what i do? i don't buy his comics. that simple. i don't sit around and try to get him fired or say bad things about him on the internet.

[emac1790]

same here. i don't like Mark Millar at all. you know what i do? i don't buy his comics. that simple. i don't sit around and try to get him fired or say bad things about him on the internet.

What?! How are you a comic fan if you don't have outrage about something you don't have to read or buy! How dare you! Now I'm offended! Many exclamation marks!!!!! Roar!!!!

[JaggedFel]

Yes. The new trend, especially on these forums is to try and be righteous but passive aggressive in an effort to get others angry enough to get banned. I have severe issues with another person calling me "honey, sweetie, baby" (not ok from either a female or male, but imo it is a direct effort to incite when one male says it to another) when they respond or seeing people who have trolled me always viewing my profile and responding to posts, yet never directly referencing said posts so they do not get banned. This is only here, you open it up to a world of people, especially on areas where the creator may not even know exist and have an effort to get someone to lose their livelihood...it would never happen if you had to post your picture and real name. Honestly, I would not even be on these boards either if that were the case just because of career and family concerns.
In direct regard to Jet, it said her age right on the page, I do not get how someone could be confused.

New? Hardly that always been the classic technique. Bait someone until they snap then demand they get banned.

[emac1790]

New? Hardly that always been the classic technique. Bait someone until they snap then demand they get banned.

I guess that's true. The difference though is after the reboot, the mods are quicker to the trigger.

[ViewtifulJC]

What?! How are you a comic fan if you don't have outrage about something you don't have to read or buy! How dare you! Now I'm offended! Many exclamation marks!!!!! Roar!!!!

This is another thing going around these days, mocking outrage. If people respond to things passionately, emotionally, they get breezed aside as irrational rants.

David Brothers had a really article about this.

What I’m talking about is how we—the comics community—describe, talk about, and address the concerns of people who are upset about one thing or another. The way we talk about outrage fatigue, outrage-of-the-week, faux outrage, outrage-o-matic, misplaced outrage, another outrage, this outrage, that outrage, and why it’s gross and short-sighted. How we use “tumblr” as a pejorative but ignore the poison in our own forums and followers.

The way we use the word outrage suggests that the outrage in question is fake and irrational, on account of being poorly thought-out and overly emotional. It happens every time someone brings up a point to do with equality, sexism, racism, or justice. It’s the same tactic the music media uses to devalue Kanye’s rants. They’re invalid, an inconvenience, annoying, or fake because you can see the emotions driving it, and emotional reactions aren’t valid.

We use the presence of passion to first diminish and then dismiss arguments. The offended must play by the rules of the unoffended, or even worse, the offenders, in order to be heard. You have to tamp down that pain if you want to get help or fix it. You can see it when people say things like “Thank you for being civil” when arguing something heated with someone they disagree with. Civility is great, sure, but we’re forcing people who feel like they’re under attack to meet us on our own terms. In reality, passion shouldn’t be dismissed. Passion has a purpose.

[Arfguy]

I honestly hope Remender showed the same level of "respect" that people calling for his job based on nothing showed him. It's too bad he didn't tell the same people calling for his job to drown themselves in hobo piss. I think I'd be very much ok with that response.