After #FireRickRemender, Can We Have a Real Conversation?

[Mr MajestiK]

So how old is Jet? I never knew she had an exact age

she's 23 years old.

[emac1790]

And? Keeping in mind what Marvel had published in the comic book and not what Remender said on Twitter one time or what Bleeding Cool said on the matter several days after this comment was made, what about that is an inaccurate reading of the situation other than the fact that Jet was not supposed to be the exact same age as Ian?

Who said anything was inaccurate? All I did was post what she said about the Captain America issue in question. It's up to whoever reads that to form their own opinion. The opinion I have is she doesn't like his work. Your opinion was she was offended. I can see that. Fine, as I said that's her right. IMO where she crosses the line is what she posted next...

Essentially, Rick Remender is the unholy trinity - a racist, sexist, ableist bastard who gets off on ruining character’s narratives, backstories, and lives to further his story goals. He’s an unoriginal hack who relies upon time-worn tropes of violence against women, substance abuse, grey-areas of sexual assault, and genocide to tell stories that are neither entertaining nor particularly memorable.

Some may agree with this. Some may not. No matter how you feel about what she said, can you see how this can be insulting? I don't like his work either, but I wouldn't post something like that. Even if I felt that way about him, I wouldn't post that on the internet. I rather say that to his face. Because IMO if you're gonna go in like that, you should be able to look someone in the eye as you say it. Just my 2 cents.

[emac1790]

I guess I'm not understanding why you replied to me in particular.

You said that this is a "thread filled with total misinformation". So I posted what her original post was. You replied. I replied back.

[Daymare]

New? Hardly that always been the classic technique. Bait someone until they snap then demand they get banned.

Yeah, new may not be the best word, I suppose I have never had such a direct interaction with it. I admit, I flame a character pretty hard as i do not like said charcter. Fans of the character group bully or comment anywhere I post related to that character now and my recently viewed looks like an appreciation thread for said character now. I did react by pointing them out to begin with and passive barbs, at one point even tried to be even keeled, but i finally broke when a thread was once again taken over and they went after another person. I tried to defend the poster for a simple comment and the tornado happened all over me. Now I just ignore it and I am not proud I let them get to me. Lucky, even though I lost my resolve at one point I never went overboard to the point of getting banned.
It is easy to do, especially on boards whet you create these faux "relationships" and get group think and the mob mentality to attack a username or entity, it is not ok when you get to a point that it affects a person in their outside life.
In the case of Remender, can you imagine, if he was truly writing the head cannon those peopel created not only could he have been fired or had his life affected, but their are times where reports of these types of issues set off immediate investigations and it could have went out of control. While I think his M-word reaction may have been extreme, we have no clue how much he had already heard and been trolled for that prior to popping. He is not anonymous online and he could have been getting bashed. At some point you do bash back.

[emac1790]

In the interest of fairness, here is a link to Jackie's follow up,

http://weinersoldier.tumblr.com/post...-i-started-the

[Mikekerr3]

One thing I'll say about this is that while the criticism of Remender and his story was clearly misguided and based on a misunderstanding of what actually happened on the page, Remender still has a responsibility as a public figure to engage in civil discourse. I am not going to say the the #FireRickRemender campaign was right; they were spreading misinformation--mostly out of ignorance, but I'm willing to bet at some points knowingly. Remender has ever right to be upset by that (or by being called out for that Havok stuff--which to my mind was an entirely valid criticism). What he does not have a right to do is respond with such malice. He--and his defenders--have a responsibility to either engage with the issue in good faith or to ignore it. In the case of the Havok stuff, he had a responsibility to the former approach--not tell comics fans who disagree with him to drown themselves in hobo piss. In the case of the Captain America outrage, he probably should have just said nothing and let it blow over, or make a small statement that addresses the fact that the campaign was based on a misrepresentation of what had actually happened. Yes, he's a person, yes he's allowed to react and be upset, but as a public figure, the way he behaved was absolutely reprehensible.

The way he behaved about fire Rick remeder was the proper way to acknowledge idiocy and lies: Silence


The Way he responded to the fans about havoc speech was only appropriate if he was in middle-school.

[Mikekerr3]

I think you might be right. I meant to extend that to his defenders as well, some of whom (like Brubaker) said some pretty gross stuff. I would say that the same rules apply regardless. If you're a public figure, you have a certain responsibility to respond tactfully. Whatever the case, it's good to know that Remender seems to have learned from what happened last time.

I do think that the way more and more internet-based news sources rely on clickbait headlines plays a big, big role in this. It moves us all away from a more nuanced conversation and toward a "discourse" that is but a chain of knee-jerk reactions.

How do you tactuflully try to say that the persobn you are corresponding to is is a liar, an illiterate or a idiot? Why treat someone that is lying and trying to get a co-worker fired, based on those lies, with any respect at all?

[Mikekerr3]

It's when Kitty joined Excalibur, I believe that Warren Ellis was writing at the time. And I'm also pretty sure that Kitty was meant to be at least 17/18 in that series (she was in a pub on at least one occasion). It's just that when Claremont starting writing her again, he ignored her age in Excalibur and started writing her as a teenager again (because he preferred her to be that age).

16 is legal in the UK, as it is in most of Europe

[emac1790]

16 is legal in the UK, as it is in most of Europe

I don't even think that's the point. When the Excalibur thing went down, the internet was not as ubiquitous as it is now. And it seems that a lot of people don't care for Remender. So Kitty/Pete=fine, Sam/Jet=Fire him.

[Emma's Midriff]

I bet Rick was really excited about aging Jet up so that Falcon could hit that.

[Mr MajestiK]

In the interest of fairness, here is a link to Jackie's follow up,

http://weinersoldier.tumblr.com/post...-i-started-the

That has got be amongst one of the most insincere "apologies" I've ever had the misfortune of reading in my life. (to date)

I read the Dimension Z arc and all that followed when Sharon Carter helped Steve get back to the 616 MU and at no point following Steve and Jet's emergence from Dimension Z did I see Zola's daughter as being anything other than an adult female.

Jackie: In my haste and anger, I asked other people who shared my opinion to tweet Marvel Comics, Rick Remender, and Captain America editor Tom Brevoort with their concerns, using the hashtag #FireRickRemender.

And I’m sorry.

I understand that the hashtag, and the arguments held under its banner, could have been (and were) seen as personal attacks. And for that, I apologize. I was coming from a place of upset, discomfort, disgust, and outrage, and I acted solely from that place.

I am genuinely sorry for any personal affront my actions may have caused.

What I am not sorry for is everything that came afterward.

Following is, I hope, a better explanation of the thinking behind #FireRickRemender. And hopefully, this will finally allow for the dialogue I’d hoped to create.

1. This was never about just Captain America #22.

By now, nearly everyone is familiar with the particular sequence of Jet and Sam’s sexual encounter as it played out in the issue. Jet Black Zola, genetically engineered daughter of Arnim Zola, resident of Dimension Z, plied Sam Wilson with wine and the two ended up sleeping together, an act that Sam almost immediately regretted.

Let me explain something, that to me has always been obvious, but is perhaps less so to people who have not led their lives being hypervigilant about sexual assault and all of its precursors:

As a survivor of sexual assault, I see it everywhere.

http://weinersoldier.tumblr.com/post...-i-started-the

The author of the blog post in question was disingenuous before and after her so-called "apology" and in the process, encouraged an ill-thought out attack on a creator even though he was well aware of the fact that Jet was clearly identified as being of age in the damn book.

I would have felt that said author was coming from a much more informed and genuine position if she had actually pointed out the fact that Jet virtually outmaneuvered Sam in the seduction game and possibly crossed the line via plying him with drink to achieve her objective. (namely, overcoming Sam's straightlaced inhibitions)

At least that way the author could have pointed out the innapropaiteness inherent in plying others with drink to gain an unfair advantage and how placing same within a comicbook open to all age audiences without a proper sequence of consequence providing a suitable cautionary backdrop, was remise on the part of Remender and his editor.

All in all, it wa a nasty and very unnecessary attack on another persons livelihood based on another individuals ill thought out blog piece.

[Hekabolos]

Yes. The new trend, especially on these forums is to try and be righteous but passive aggressive in an effort to get others angry enough to get banned. I have severe issues with another person calling me "honey, sweetie, baby" (not ok from either a female or male, but imo it is a direct effort to incite when one male says it to another) when they respond or seeing people who have trolled me always viewing my profile and responding to posts, yet never directly referencing said posts so they do not get banned.

I've seen the same thing, but was convinced I was just being paranoid. There is also a group of posters who consistently show up in threads where people are having...let's call them spirited...debates and begin espousing an opinion opposite those who are most passionate, even when this opinion is the polar opposite of what they were saying in the previous thread they were in. It's frustrating and more than a little sad.

This is another thing going around these days, mocking outrage. If people respond to things passionately, emotionally, they get breezed aside as irrational rants.

David Brothers had a really article about this.

Thank you for posting this. The link is an excellent read and, honestly, should be required reading for everyone before they begin posting on CBR (or, really, anywhere). Especially relevant to me, in light of my above comments, and to this thread, was this:

A lot of people don’t feel welcome in the greater comics community. We created and create this environment with our words and actions. If it’s not people hassling you over taste or creeping on you at cons or making “funny” jokes about things you care about, it’s seeing how people respond to outrage. When you see a community consistently dis and dismiss people expressing their pain, you’re less likely to share your own pain when the time comes, because odds are good you’re gonna feel a lot worse when the usual suspects get ahold of your words and the blowback starts coming in.

The way we talk about outrage-in-the-abstract has a way of building further outrage in addition to diminishing other types. Where some people will shy away out of self-preservation, others will go even harder because they know you won’t listen. They know their words will be skimmed and stripped of context before being ignored and insulted. To have a point you care deeply about and then to be told that point is irrelevant and invalid—that warrants anger, doesn’t it?

The mods here have become better at spotting and removing this type of behavior post-reboot. There is, however, still a large contingent of posters that are simply uninterested in other's opinions, unless it is to mock them, who somehow consistently avoid banning. There are only so many times a person can be mocked, bullied or simply ignored before they just stop speaking. As I said, this has gotten better since the reboot, but there are places on the boards that are still intimidating and frankly toxic to open and honest conversation. If one side is unwilling to listen, and the other is unwilling to speak, how can we have any real conversation?

[Mark]

As long as it is easier to insult and ridicule than it is to discuss, as long as the other poster's opinion is regarded as not just wrong but so wrong that the other poster is regarded as a complete idiot as in 'I can't believe you have that opinion', as long as it's all taken to a personal level, then there will seldom be discussions that don't have insults and anger hurled through the keyboard at the person on the other end. It can be minimized, but you only have to take a look at the politics thread in the community forum to see raw anger and scorn spit out on a regular basis. We're just not as civilized as we like to think we are when there are no consequences involved in attacking someone.

[emac1790]

The only way a real conversation can happen is if people spoke face to face. Most people don't have the guts to say a lot of the things they would post on a message board to somebody else's face. Don't get me wrong, some people do have the guts. Many don't.

[emac1790]

That has got be amongst one of the most insincere "apologies" I've ever had the misfortune of reading in my life. (to date)

I read the Dimension Z arc and all that followed when Sharon Carter helped Steve get back to the 616 MU and at no point following Steve and Jet's emergence from Dimension Z did I see Zola's daughter as being anything other than an adult female.



The author of the blog post in question was disingenuous before and after her so-called "apology" and in the process, encouraged an ill-thought out attack on a creator even though he was well aware of the fact that Jet was clearly identified as being of age in the damn book.

I would have felt that said author was coming from a much more informed and genuine position if she had actually pointed out the fact that Jet virtually outmaneuvered Sam in the seduction game and possibly crossed the line via plying him with drink to achieve her objective. (namely, overcoming Sam's straightlaced inhibitions)

At least that way the author could have pointed out the innapropaiteness inherent in plying others with drink to gain an unfair advantage and how placing same within a comicbook open to all age audiences without a proper sequence of consequence providing a suitable cautionary backdrop, was remise on the part of Remender and his editor.

All in all, it wa a nasty and very unnecessary attack on another persons livelihood based on another individuals ill thought out blog piece.

She also added this...

Positive representation of female characters, of characters of color, of queer characters means very little when endorsed by a company that is simultaneously complicit in the continued treatment of those same characters as objects and non-entities.

Actions speak louder that words, Marvel.

That’s why I’m not sorry about #FireRickRemender.

I’m not sorry, because in a few days, I raised more awareness and generated more discussion and attention than I have writing letters since Captain America debuted in November 2012.

I’m not sorry, because I know Marvel can do better.

I’m not sorry, because the amount of creator and fan backlash, the amount of sheer vitriol that’s been spewed, the amount of cruel jokes and sarcasm and outright offensive and revolting behavior has served only to drown out my concerns.

I’m not sorry, because I’m tired of being silent. I’m tired of the tacit participation of fans, creators, editors, and executives. I’m tired of the pervasive acceptance of the fact that these themes, and the attitudes they breed, are acceptable.

I’m not sorry, because as a female fan, I’ve always had to be three times as loud to get my voice heard.

I’m not sorry, because in the past few days, I’ve endured rape threats, slurs, name-calling, unwanted sexual advances, and threats to my personal safety for speaking out.

http://weinersoldier.tumblr.com/post...-i-started-the

Take what you will from that. I will say that anyone, that as she said, replied with "rape threats, slurs, name-calling, unwanted sexual advances, and threats to my personal safety for speaking out" was dead wrong.