The "retroactively making old DC characters gay/bi/biracial" thread

[Ascended]

Whatever our disagreements my hat is off to you as a true, major DC fanatic with an incredible feel for DC history. There are maybe 3 of you here that consistently blow my mind with your deep knowledge of DC lore and you're as good as anyone here with regard to that. Though we disagree on this one issue I just respect the heck out of you as a DC historian. You're one of the best.

I love this post. I mean, I wasn't even the target of all that BS on the previous thread, but I love that someone has said this.

If only we could all be as understanding and rational as this all the time. Myself included.

[Ascended]

Human Bomb came after Phantom Lady & Doll Man.

.....I can't tell if that looks terrible, or awesome in a "80's action movie staring Arnold!" kind of way.

[Robanker]

Whatever our disagreements my hat is off to you as a true, major DC fanatic with an incredible feel for DC history. There are maybe 3 of you here that consistently blow my mind with your deep knowledge of DC lore and you're as good as anyone here with regard to that. Though we disagree on this one issue I just respect the heck out of you as a DC historian. You're one of the best.

Agreed. The Major is a valuable member of the community, and while I agree with his views at times and disagree at others, the entire point of discussion is to clash ideas. I listen to opposing opinions on just about everything I enjoy because I feel that it's important to understand the other sides of an argument rather than strawman them. MajorHoy (and many others, mind) has been reading these characters longer than I and he's exposed me to some stuff I've missed over the years.

Indeed, the whole thing with Allan is a difficult subject, and I don't blame fans like MajorHoy who would rather keep continuity intact than retcon things. I don't completely agree with the opinion (if there's wiggle room, take advantage) but it's one of those things that'll leave some fans unhappy no matter what you do.

Yeah, retcons are a good tool-- but with any tool, overusing them eventually breaks down what you intended to fix. Use with caution, but don't be afraid to retcon things that don't work or no longer serve the character.

I only read the first Rebirth Birds of Prey trade and I can't say I was blown away by it, but I do really love the new Huntress. Honestly, I didn't even notice the darker skin tone until someone pointed it out to me. But I love it, and I hope it sticks.

As do I. So far, I'm enjoying this take on Helena and I can't sing enough praises about her visual. It's a great look.

And the Hawks, they can be reborn as any ethnicity so you can have a modern day Hawk who's Egyptian and also keep the previous history intact, as long as you schedule in a reincarnation. It's one of my favorite aspects of any DC property; there's so much you can do with the Hawks! What if they were both born as women (or men) in one cycle? How did that play out for them? I'm really looking forward to seeing what DC does with the Hawks post-Metal.

I've thought about them reincarnating as a same-sex couple before too, and I'm sure they worked it out. Right now I'm kind of in love with the idea that their cycle is out of sync, and that Chay-ara is one reincarnation ahead of Khufu. Carter is still the 1940s JSA Hawkman and Kendra was born more recently. Make him a conservative, her a moderate liberal. Old values against new, but in a relationship where both people love each other and don't let their differences ultimately break them. They get heated in their debates, but they work it out. Especially in a climate as politically charged as we've got, that'd be a refreshing take to read.

I'm almost certain that's not going to happen, especially since Carter is coming back sooner than the JSA, but still. It's an idea I'm fond of.

That's just a huge mess. And I have no idea how they can get themselves out of it in a way that'll satisfy fans of both classic Wally and nu Wally. Other than just having nu Wally go by his full or middle name, I don't think this has a happy ending.

Comics will break your heart, kid.

[MajorHoy]

.....I can't tell if that looks terrible, or awesome in a "80's action movie staring Arnold!" kind of way.

Well, I have no idea if the story was any good, but if you've got Jerry Ordway doing art, it should definitely "look awesome".

[Bored at 3:00AM]

What "legacy"?
Having NO JSA legacy period during the New52 was a huge problem since there had been attempts to promote Earth 2 in the beginning as a "return" of the JSA. The actual JSA only seemed to be hinted at occasionally later on during the DCYou Doctor Fate run and maybe in one-or-two other isolated places.

You didn't actually read what I wrote before erupting into your rant, did you?

[skyvolt2000]

That's just a huge mess. And I have no idea how they can get themselves out of it in a way that'll satisfy fans of both classic Wally and nu Wally. Other than just having nu Wally go by his full or middle name, I don't think this has a happy ending.

Easy get rid of the crappy one-Nu Wally.

He was written offensive day one.
Had to have a white savior.
Trashed by Batman's kid
And constantly written badly.
Nobody cares for the tv version.

Wally is in TWO books and he is still a mess.
He is never going to get to the level Classic Wally was/is at. So why waste the time? When there is Cyborg who needs to be FIXED.

If they must keep him- Rip Hunter or Wave RIder can't be that busy to drop him off in Dakota (Icon can have foster son) or Legion's time period or Wildstorm Universe (Michael Cray can adopt him). At least you wold have someone to use as a plot point for the eventual Milestone/DC or Wildstorm/DC meet and greet.

[astro@work]

If they must keep him- Rip Hunter or Wave RIder can't be that busy to drop him off in Dakota (Icon can have foster son) or Legion's time period or Wildstorm Universe (Michael Cray can adopt him). At least you wold have someone to use as a plot point for the eventual Milestone/DC or Wildstorm/DC meet and greet.

I just wish they’d make one easy fix: have him acknowledge the older Wally the way most family members do and say “call me WJ” or some such. Then he’s not “the other Wally” anymore and the comparisons stop. Personally, I started liking him better once the original Wally showed up and he wasn’t supposed to be “that” Wally. As a unique character he’s got a lot of promise if developed properly.

[Tazpocalapse]

I have a idea for a fanfic story i was thinking about that i think would fit in the DCU more than other comic publishers. What if it was a forgotten character that was active in the late 40s to 60s, that was a character that was black or multiracial that operated under a persona that was not how he really looked( secret identity) to be able to have access to avenues that he would not under his real identity(As a black man) during those times. I think it would be a interesting approach to the whole Mystery Man aspect of comics.

Do you guys think it could be done effectively in this climate? This would not involve the changing of a established character but would introduce a new one in the fold retroactively.

[Confuzzled]

I have a idea for a fanfic story i was thinking about that i think would fit in the DCU more than other comic publishers. What if it was a forgotten character that was active in the late 40s to 60s, that was a character that was black or multiracial that operated under a persona that was not how he really looked( secret identity) to be able to have access to avenues that he would not under his real identity(As a black man) during those times. I think it would be a interesting approach to the whole Mystery Man aspect of comics.

Do you guys think it could be done effectively in this climate? This would not involve the changing of a established character but would introduce a new one in the fold retroactively.

I think this would be a neat idea for members of a reimagined Justice Society. Other comics have toyed with this concept before (Watchmen/Minutemen, Jupiter's Circle) but it would be nice to have this explored in the mainstream DC universe.

Btw John Ridley's upcoming "The Other History of the DC Universe" under the Black Label print seems to follow a similar idea.

[MajorHoy]

You didn't actually read what I wrote before erupting into your rant, did you?

As far as DC is concerned, I don't know if there actually is a "JSA legacy" any more.
When they were initially talking about Earth 2 for the New52, the early word was that it would be a "return" of the JSA, but we know how that turned out. And as it takes longer and longer for DC to bring back a "JSA" as a result of Rebirth, I keep feeling DC will "tweak" it to the point where the "JSA" we get will be so changed from the JSA some of us still remember that it won't be anything like what many of us were (AGAIN!) led to believe we'd be getting.

And it's not like DC hasn't pulled things like this before in terms of trying to rid itself of the JSA. They tried to eliminate them as a result of Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1986. Then when they were brought back in Armageddon: Inferno a few years later and got their own series, DC cancelled that after ten issues and killed off more of the Golden Age heroes as part of Zero Hour: Crisis in Time.

As time goes on, I lose more and more trust in DC. Maybe they keep hoping the longer they leave them alone, fewer and fewer of their current readers will know/care about the "JSA legacy".

[Jim Kelly]

I wonder how many white Americans know that for decades (more than a century in some instances) there have been hundreds of African-American comics characters living their fictional lives in newspapers all over the United States, written, illustrated, published and read by African-Americans.

These so-called “race papers” provided stories to the black population that the white publishers wouldn’t.

In the same way, if I were managing the fictional history of the DC USA, I would say that all these heroes and villains existed at the same time as the conventional white characters, but they never got recognition from the white majority for the same reasons.

Likewise with underground comix that have presented alternative cultures for several decades.

The question is whether DC should acquire and publish some of these comics and comix. I’m ambivalent about that as a Canadian. When it comes to Canada—we are poorly represented in comics, but having big brother America publish comics for us doesn’t seem the answer. Same with minority interests inside America—having the Man publish comics for your community could take away some ownership of your culture.

Besides which, DC has a spotty record with their acquisitions.

[CaptCleghorn]

I wonder how many white Americans know that for decades (more than a century in some instances) there have been hundreds of African-American comics characters living their fictional lives in newspapers all over the United States, written, illustrated, published and read by African-Americans.

These so-called “race papers” provided stories to the black population that the white publishers wouldn’t.

In the same way, if I were managing the fictional history of the DC USA, I would say that all these heroes and villains existed at the same time as the conventional white characters, but they never got recognition from the white majority for the same reasons.

Likewise with underground comix that have presented alternative cultures for several decades.

The question is whether DC should acquire and publish some of these comics and comix. I’m ambivalent about that as a Canadian. When it comes to Canada—we are poorly represented in comics, but having big brother America publish comics for us doesn’t seem the answer. Same with minority interests inside America—having the Man publish comics for your community could take away some ownership of your culture.

Besides which, DC has a spotty record with their acquisitions.

And here's another possible solution. I wonder if many of these black publications are referable by DC . Are they in the public domain (like Thunder Agents)?

I know Amazing Man could have been looked on as a possible example of these black heroes, but I am not knowledgeable about the vast majoroity of those publications. The input of comic historians can be very helpful here and i thank people like Jin Kelly and Major Hoy for sharing their knowlege and experience.

[Ascended]

Easy get rid of the crappy one-Nu Wally.

He was written offensive day one.
Had to have a white savior.
Trashed by Batman's kid
And constantly written badly.
Nobody cares for the tv version.

Wally is in TWO books and he is still a mess.
He is never going to get to the level Classic Wally was/is at. So why waste the time? When there is Cyborg who needs to be FIXED.

If they must keep him- Rip Hunter or Wave RIder can't be that busy to drop him off in Dakota (Icon can have foster son) or Legion's time period or Wildstorm Universe (Michael Cray can adopt him). At least you wold have someone to use as a plot point for the eventual Milestone/DC or Wildstorm/DC meet and greet.

Well, it wouldn't break my heart if the kid disappeared and was never seen again, but is that really a great solution?

We all know that DC isn't nearly as diverse as it should/could be, and nuWally has a pretty solid heroic pedigree with that bolt of lightning on his chest.

I definitely didn't care for how he was written when he first appeared, though I could *sort* of understand the delinquency considering what Central City had just gone through and where this Wally was coming in from. It was highly, unforgivably tasteless to take that approach with a teenaged black male, but I could still see the story logic even if I disagreed with it. And classic Wally's origin was re-written to include a crappy home life, so I didn't take offense at that carrying over to nu Wally. Sadly, that's about the only thing about him that felt like it came from the classic version (and again, even that wasn't original, but added in later).

Then I stopped reading Flash until Rebirth, which I now trade wait, so I have no idea what happened with nuWally in between, other than him getting powers and a costume. And I still don't read Teen Titans (other than the first story where Kaldur debuted, because Aqualad is awesome). And while nuWally's still not a great character and is rather stereotypically "side kick-ish" I don't think he's offensive. He's just bland now and needs a hook.

And DC is never going to give me back the Wally West I want. The redhead running around with the Titans right now isn't the Wally I know. That Wally will never return. So screw it. I say make nuWally worthwhile and interesting. His origin might be complete sh*t but that cane make good fertilizer if cultivated properly.

[skyvolt2000]

Well, it wouldn't break my heart if the kid disappeared and was never seen again, but is that really a great solution?

We all know that DC isn't nearly as diverse as it should/could be, and nuWally has a pretty solid heroic pedigree with that bolt of lightning on his chest.

I definitely didn't care for how he was written when he first appeared, though I could *sort* of understand the delinquency considering what Central City had just gone through and where this Wally was coming in from. It was highly, unforgivably tasteless to take that approach with a teenaged black male, but I could still see the story logic even if I disagreed with it. And classic Wally's origin was re-written to include a crappy home life, so I didn't take offense at that carrying over to nu Wally. Sadly, that's about the only thing about him that felt like it came from the classic version (and again, even that wasn't original, but added in later).

And DC is never going to give me back the Wally West I want. The redhead running around with the Titans right now isn't the Wally I know. That Wally will never return. So screw it. I say make nuWally worthwhile and interesting. His origin might be complete sh*t but that cane make good fertilizer if cultivated properly.

Classic Wally had a crappy home life and still never turned to crime unlike his counterpart.

In the DC Rebirth preview book-they pretended Damian was talking about his team mates and when it came to Wally-and even other Flash fans agreed. It sound like Damian was going to treat Wally like his bytch. Not only that but in the Titans Rebirth-Wally was accused of stealing from a store DESPITE the guy who did it was WHITE and in an outfit different from Wally.
DC has written him as some needy little boy nonstop.

Get rid of him now before we see the same mess Cyborg & John Stewart keeping suffering from. Where writer REFUSE to do research and keep these guys trapped in the same messed stories that end up turning folks OFF on those guys.
Nor the 90210 (last version) complex of where the black guy is FOREVER the plot device and everything bad happens to him.

The person who could probably fix will probably never set foot at DC. Or as we see with Cyborg-no one will be allowed to fix him.

Screw diversity cut his lose. Because there are bigger names that need to be fix-guys who can lead tv shows and have sold way more books like JSA, Legion, Shazam, Kyle, Static and so on.

[Ascended]

Classic Wally had a crappy home life and still never turned to crime unlike his counterpart.

Wasn't it just vandalism?

I mean, its not cool, but who hasn't tagged a building in their day?

Or did he do something worse that I'm forgetting? Either way, I see your point and I agree; classic Wally didn't descend to that sorta crap there's no real excuse for nuWally to have done so. And for a first appearance, it just really set a terrible tone.

In the DC Rebirth preview book-they pretended Damian was talking about his team mates and when it came to Wally-and even other Flash fans agreed. It sound like Damian was going to treat Wally like his bytch.

Well, that's how Damien treats everyone. Says more about him than nuWally or the other Titans.

Screw diversity cut his lose.

Like I said, it wouldn't bother me. But I do think it would look pretty bad on DC's part. But then again, every Crisis needs some canon fodder, and I'd rather nuWally bite the bullet than Barry, classic Wally, or Bart (if he ever returns).