The "retroactively making old DC characters gay/bi/biracial" thread

[Zudomon]

I'm totally for new interpretations of characters and changes to sexuality/race. Most of the current legacy characters in comics were created during a time where American culture was not as kind to minorities or women. I'm cool as long as the inner essence of the character is the same.

[PyroTwilight]

Triumph was meant to be gay? Never knew that. Gotta hand it to Priest. Not only did he retroactively add a gay man to the founding of the JLA, but he also decided to make him a colossal douche nozel that was designed to be unlike-able. Priest seems to delight in playing against expectations, much like he did by pitting the League against his villainous Black Panther knock-off the same month Marvel puts out the Black Panther movie.

http://digitalpriest.com/legacy/comics/triumph.html

"Triumph was gay, something probably only Brian and I knew since we didn't have an appropriate storyline to deal sensitively with that issue, but that was my subtext for his emotional center: how out of place and out of sync Triumph was with the DC Universe."

Funny too. I absolutely loved Triumph and was really weirded out that everyone treated him so badly in universe (and apparently out). It never occurred to me that other readers would hate the guy. His story DID actually make me hate the JLA (due to his use in Morrison's story in Crisis Times 5) and Martian Manhunter (due to Taskforce).

[BatmanJones]

The vast majority of DC characters we read about today were created between 1939-1970s. Almost every major character was.

During that era, during all of it, it was not okay according to society to have a gay character in a comic book.

To me that means writer's intentions don't mean all that much. We see all these characters evolve in different ways over different eras.

The math would suggest that among ALL of DC's major heroes, some of them would be gay. In the 40s-70s though, that would never be put in a comic book. And IRL, most gay people in that 30 (or really more like 50) year long era were closeted. IRL it was the 1990s when most middle aged gay men first started coming out of the closet, when they were in their 40s or 50s.

It would make all the sense in the world to learn that not just one but several of the characters we've been reading about was gay and both (a) couldn't be gay in the comics because no one could and (b) was likely closeted like nearly all LGBTQ were then. And I don't mean something like the somewhat secret intension of Byrne/Northstar. I mean characters we know and love that are popular and have been portrayed as heterosexual in past iterations.

If any character were gay they would have been in the closet. It makes all the sense in the world, especially now that our society has finally caught up and largely overcome the bigotry against LGBTQ, that we should learn some of the characters we love have always been gay but were in the closet about it. This is practically the first year that a major character might feel comfortable stepping out of the closet. It is definitely the first decade - remember that Obama would have lost if he'd come out in favor of gay marriage in 2008--it was a thing that one could not do and be elected president, even to be okay with gay marriage only 10 years ago.

[ConnorHawke]

You have my gay-thanks for your thoughtful reply.

What's your cut-off for revealing newer characters as gay? Obsidian is okay because he debuted in the 1980s, but not his father because he first appeared in the 1940s? What about Ray Terril, who was created in the early 1990s? I confess I was bored stupid by Orlando's JLA, so I never read enough to know if the newly gay-ified Ray was worth a damn.

Hmm..... I guess I have no problem with Ray either, since he's still supposed to be in that younger, ambiguous learning-about-oneself phase. It's believable.
I'm more opposed to him being a reintroduction of a character that didn't need reintroducing, to be honest. So tired of that. Things like Black Canary is suddenly a musician from child abuse and foster homes, instead of someone who was inspired to fight crime like her mother and father as the Black Canary and a policeman, respectively. And that BCII was an explain-away concept in the first place! Too messy.

[Ascended]

PR aside, I'm definitely on the side that wants Alan to come out of the closet. Doing so makes it so Earth-2's removal doesn't result in the negative net of LGBT heroes, DC gets another prominent male gay hero (they have terribly few) and as we've discussed on other threads, it opens up some really interesting story possibilities.

I agree with that.

Like MajorHoy, I don't really like past continuity being screwed with too much. I don't like retcons and reboots. Embrace it all, all the mistakes, all the wrong headed cultural norms, and make it work for you. Don't be lazy and pretend it was different/better than it was, just make it good *now.*

However, where he and I disagree is that I've no issue with additional layers being added, as long as it's not taking anything away. It's completely possible that one (or more) of the Golden Age heroes was secretly gay (or whatever) and kept it a secret, perhaps even refused to admit it to him (or her) self. Knowing what we know now, it's just very likely statistically. So with Allan, yeah I can totally see (with hindsight) him having been a gay man in all those stories. And I think it adds a lot of potential to the character. I don't see anything being removed; the man could still have loved his wives. Just not in "that" way. All his adventures remain utterly unchanged. But it adds something new you can do with him now. And it makes the DCU a more diverse place, which is a great bonus.

[mace11]

If Iris West suddenly started being portrayed as having slightly darker skin tone because she's biracial like her TV counterpart, would anyone except for a few Alt-Right fanboys really care?

Iris west on tv is not bi-biracial and the actress is i read in the x-men forum awhile ago is not bi-biracial either.

[mace11]

I do get that just making new characters doesn't achieve diversity since they're hard to stick

This is not true and some/certain new characters do stick.

[Assam]

This is not true and some new characters do stick.

Some new characters stick. Most don't. If you're not a legacy or part of a 'Family' your chances are almost zero.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I don't like the idea of changing a character's orientation retroactively.

That said, I have no problem with characters coming out of the closet today, or even discovering they were not as straight as they thought. I find it preferable, and a story that we have not seem so far.

On the same hand, I wouldn't like a character coming out ruining an already established relationship. For instance, my favorite character is Wally. If they decide that "Wally is gay", I'd be pissed because of Linda. (If they decide he's bi, however, I don't care).

As for ethnicity: in theory I don't care. But it has to be sincere and well thought out. Wally is the most terrible example we've got so far.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Some new characters stick. Most don't. If you're not a legacy or part of a 'Family' your chances are almost zero.

Even if you are, it's tough.

Poor Jaime got a tremendous push and still doesn't take off.

[mace11]

Some new characters stick. Most don't. If you're not a legacy or part of a 'Family' your chances are almost zero.

The point is some do stick,either most don't or most do or something in the middle.
That's why i said some or certain.
Diversity in comics is much HIGHER today then it was in 40's,80's or 90's for example.

[Assam]

Even if you are, it's tough.

Poor Jaime got a tremendous push and still doesn't take off.

Oh definitely. You just have a slightly better chance if you're not a standalone character. There are still TONS of Family characters we haven't seen in a long time/ don't exist anymore.

[JasonTodd428]

Some new characters stick. Most don't. If you're not a legacy or part of a 'Family' your chances are almost zero.

Even with being a legacy or part of a 'Family' it's still pretty difficult for a new character to stick these days at least when it comes to the Big Two anyway.

[HandofPrometheus]

Two of my favorites, The Ray and Aqualad, were revealed gay in Rebirth and I had no problem with it. I did feel disappointed with The Ray because Jennifer was written out of his life but it didn't make me hate the decision. Also they way The Ray dressed back in the day could be argued he was a closet gay. Aqualad is a fairly new character still so he didn't really lose anything significant. His YJ counterpart comes off as a person who can love anyone so I'm not bothered.

As for Alan Scott I think him coming out as Bi to Obsidian could be a great moment.

[ConnorHawke]

As for Alan Scott I think him coming out as Bi to Obsidian could be a great moment.

Your comment gives me pause. The recent film "Call Me By Your Name" had a very similar, well-written and completely understated scene along those lines. Ones of the highlights of the film.