The "retroactively making old DC characters gay/bi/biracial" thread

[phonogram12]

There is NO danger of straight white male heroes going away. Some of them will always have fans. But the fans of many of these books are getting older and the actuarial tables aren't speaking well of their futures. I am not going to be here forever, and if Marvel and DC want to sell books after me and those with interests like me are gone, they need to adapt. If that means publishing titles and charcters I may not follow, well, Marvel and DC have ALWAYS done that. We don't need to like or read everything.

I've been saying this for YEARS now.

[Confuzzled]

Besides this double standard being the reason there are far more female LGBT characters than males...

That's just on the DC side, and there too the female/female relationships are usually tastefully done. There's parity when it comes to Marvel and the other companies (in fact, Marvel probably has more male LGBT characters than females, at least the major ones).

Btw LoSH has Element Lad too, who is bisexual male, and his partner Shvaughn/Sean who can shift between both male and female.

Also, no one but us uber nerds really cares about the Legion.

I'm surprised the 00's animated show didn't boost their popularity much.

[phonogram12]

There's no such thing as shoehorning in representation. "Forced Diversity" is a myth made up by bigots.

Accurate.

10 characters

[Elmo]

I do think it will be interesting see how DC handles future appearances of Alan Scott. Would be a PR nightmare if they made him straight again

no one would care and that's the truth

[Waterfall]

Wally's love for Linda wouldn't make him any less bi.

I think we're due for some massive shake up when it comes to LGBT representation within male characters. I would honestly barely count lesbians progressive at this point as it seems clear that it's done with a sneaky sexist agenda.

But racial change is an entire diferent beast. Comics is a visual medium; you can make Wally West bisexual and he'd still be the same guy. But when you change his race you also change: his background, his culture, his outlook and his visual design. Can you pull this off? Yes but it needs dedication. A massive research should be done before bringing a character like this. Wallace was created by two white males who were ignorant about the character himself, let alone the drastic change in culture they had little idea about. If Wally's design kept some familiar elements like his hair, kept his background & personality exactly like his pre-Flashpoint self, kept his age and status acceptable but just darkened his skin tone a bit, we would be looking at a much different DC now. To say they dropped the ball in that department is an understatement. Let this be a lesson: don't half ass a huge change in the character like this, give your time and do your best to make the most acceptable version of the character. As we've all witnessed, neither Van Jensen nor Robert Venditti were comitted to idea OR cared about it whatsoever.

Wally coming out as bi could easily be done as a character progression arc. Wally being biracial however means you are recreating the character from ground up and you have to be genuinely committed to make it work.

no one would care and that's the truth

I would care.

[iron chimp]

DC have published books dealing with the whole spectrum of sexuality; sebastion O, enigma, doom patrol, shade the changing man, the extremist, swampthing etc etc. Right now they are publishing a story one thread of which is a character who is non binary / poly sexual / or whatever the character is (it's a complicated character, the exact nature of what is being discussed will appeal to those interested in sexuality more than me ).

Get hand in pocket and support the books they do publish and they will publish more, no problem. They like money. None of their current roster of writers cutting it for; go find writers who write sexuality in ways that do appeal to you from other companies / small press / indie press and DC will take note. It really is that simple.

[Elmo]

I would care.

didn't ask

[Waterfall]

DC have published books dealing with the whole spectrum of sexuality; sebastion O, enigma, doom patrol, shade the changing man, the extremist, swampthing etc etc. Right now they are publishing a story one thread of which is a character who is non binary / poly sexual / or whatever the character is (it's a complicated character, the exact nature of what is being discussed will appeal to those interested in sexuality more than me ).

Get hand in pocket and support the books they do publish and they will publish more, no problem. They like money. None of their current roster of writers cutting it for; go find writers who write sexuality in ways that do appeal to you from other companies / small press / indie press and DC will take note. It really is that simple.

Making things like that in their own corner doesn't change anything, this is the core problem of representation. They should be as visible in mainstream as possible, not buried in obscure indie crowd.

didn't ask

don't care, I just disproved your statement and that's enough for me.

[BatfanReborn]

Laurence Fishburne playing Perry White in Man of Steel barely raised an eyebrow though a black man as Chief Editor of a mainstream newspaper when the character was first created would have been unthinkable. Will Smith as Deadshot in Suicide Squad was cool too but I still think of comic book Floyd Lawton as a white guy with a moustache.

[9th.]

There is NO danger of straight white male heroes going away. Some of them will always have fans. But the fans of many of these books are getting older and the actuarial tables aren't speaking well of their futures. I am not going to be here forever, and if Marvel and DC want to sell books after me and those with interests like me are gone, they need to adapt. If that means publishing titles and charcters I may not follow, well, Marvel and DC have ALWAYS done that. We don't need to like or read everything.

I don't know why people thought they were in danger, its completely asinine.

[phonogram12]

I don't know why people thought they were in danger, its completely asinine.

To paraphrase the old adage "when the minority starts to receive the same rights as everybody else, equality begins to feel like oppression to the majority."

[jamgut]

Besides this double standard being the reason there are far more female LGBT characters than males, Classic Salu and Ayla have basically been written as a couple since the mid-late 80's, being so blatant that I have to imagine the only people who couldn't see what was on the page were the ones who didn't want to.

Also, no one but us uber nerds really cares about the Legion.

And then there's Ayla's way-ahead-of-its-time first appearance when she tried to pass as a guy (her brother).

[iron chimp]

Making things like that in their own corner doesn't change anything, this is the core problem of representation. They should be as visible in mainstream as possible, not buried in obscure indie crowd.

That's not what I said. I said if you don't like DC rosta's of writers take on sexuality, go support writers outside DC that you do like, and DC will take note; ie they will hire them because they will be bringing readers with them to their DC books.

[skyvolt2000]

Was anyone's problem with Duke that he was an African American? I thought it was because there didn't seem a good direction for the character prior. Jessica Cruz on the other hand has had a warmer reception, particularly because she works as a rookie with a unique personality.
.

Yes and no. I have seen elsewhere where if you read in between the lines folks took issue with Duke's race. Enough for many of them to stop reading the book that they have read for 20+ years. He was the final straw to make them stop reading.
I have seen lists of books to boycott and Batman was number one due to Duke.

Other wise it was what Ascended posted. With one guy going overboard with the hate. You can't say Duke was getting development in Batman over others when he only appeared in a panel or two.
Excluding All Star Batman backups and the first arc-all of Duke's appearances Batman didn't even add up to a full issue of one book.
In fact you could fit all those appearances in the Batman & Signal trade and still have space left over.

People like Dwayne McDuffie created new, original minority characters and told great stories about them. And guess what? People loved them.

Key item you forget-PEOPLE AT LEAST TRIED THEM and those who didn't-did not throw fits about the book being made like they are NOW.

Roddenberry really was ahead of the curve. Trek has done such great things for representation.

Star Trek did not LIMIT itself to the tv shows. They made sure you saw it in everything they tossed out.
Jake Sisko did little to nothing on the show-he had his own book line and at least 2 DS9 novels devoted to HIM. Even the IDW series took bit players and made they bigger.

If it sounds like I'm blaming the fans for DC's lack of diversity, I am. But only a little bit (DC isn't escaping blame here, but it's not 100% on them). Because I've seen (and supported) plenty of books from DC featuring minority characters that no one bothered with.

Well DC has to put up a better effort.

They want to do as little as they can and expect to win because they are DC. What they fail to understand when that mindset has kept plenty of crappy DC (and marvel) books on shelves. It does not work outside the comic book store.
A badly done Cyborg book rots at my library while Valiant's Faith has a waiting list.
Don't get me started on Saga & Wicked & Divine or Dr Who.

You can't grant ONE shot for diverse books and that is it. There is no excuse for Cyborg to have a book when his sales are looking UP at Moon Girl. Not when you have a legion of diverse leads who while they might only get one arc-that is one MORE trade out there.

But if you just bend characters in existing long running properties, they are for the most part only targeting a small minority within the their existing audience.

For all these cries for certain franchises-we see a lot of making excuses to NOT buy those books.
Like I told the Fantastic Four fans-you SCREAMED for that book-at LEAST try the first issue or arc. Because all I saw was every POC from Moon Girl to Inhumans be attacked for no FF book. With folks rallying others to not buy books to force Marvel to give them FF.

Personally I would leave them alone but when I see just as much PUSH BACK to new folks like Duke or Static-that makes it hard to do anything with them. I am going to try another route and hello Miles & Riri.

[Ascended]

Well DC has to put up a better effort.

They want to do as little as they can and expect to win because they are DC. What they fail to understand when that mindset has kept plenty of crappy DC (and marvel) books on shelves. It does not work outside the comic book store.
A badly done Cyborg book rots at my library while Valiant's Faith has a waiting list.
Don't get me started on Saga & Wicked & Divine or Dr Who.

You can't grant ONE shot for diverse books and that is it. There is no excuse for Cyborg to have a book when his sales are looking UP at Moon Girl. Not when you have a legion of diverse leads who while they might only get one arc-that is one MORE trade out there.

You're right, DC does need to put in more effort, a better effort, and a more consistent effort.

But I can't blame them entirely when we've got an entire line of New Age books, which are (from what I've seen, I haven't tried them all) high quality and well advertised, and DCYOU was full of diverse books, and the New52 before that was full of diverse books.

And yeah, they've put out some really terrible minority books, like Static and Cyborg. But they've also put out some really damn good ones too. And the quality doesn't matter, the degree of advertising doesn't matter, people don't typically read the titles. DC's fanbase, at least within the direct market, only seem to care about the established, long running classic characters.

I don't even think its (usually) a racism thing, I think it's a comfort food thing. Like, you dont go to a steak house and order the salad; you get the filet. Likewise, you don't go to DC for the new D-listers, you go for the Bat, the Super, and the Wonder.

I think the trick here isn't to put out higher quality minority books (although that *does* need to happen obviously) I think it's getting the books out to new audiences through new formats that aren't the direct market. So, basically this battle has two fronts; making diverse characters that have staying potential and then getting those characters out to new audiences who *are* willing to order the salad at the steak house.