The "retroactively making old DC characters gay/bi/biracial" thread

[CaptCleghorn]

And thats why even today batman, superman and all other characters from golden age only have 8 page stories with no continuity or history. That 8 page im out the closet reveal is going to be a real rollercoaster ride.

A modern look at old characters is not going to be old style. Those characters are going to be in longer stories and will probably change and develop. I'm curious if other modern adaptions of old characters differing from the originals were a roller coaster.

[andersonh1]

its just bad story telling to reveal to reader that someone who has existed for say 50 years in fiction without any foreshadowing at all is now gay.

That sort of thing comes across as a stunt. "Hey, look what you never knew for the last 70 years about this character!"

[Ascended]

That sort of thing comes across as a stunt. "Hey, look what you never knew for the last 70 years about this character!"

And that's a legitimate concern.

Changes and adjustments like this can easily be seen as a crap stunt, because it so often is a crap stunt.

I'll roll with a Golden Ager coming out of the closet, but that is completely dependent on the assumption that any change being made is handled well, crafted with care, and done for deeper reasons than a company being able to check a few boxes on a "representation" list in a poor effort to shut up the extreme left, or for a shock value gimmick that doesn't have any real meat on the bone.

But an old hero like that coming out? Damn that's some ripe narrative with a lot of potential. That's something we haven't really seen before, and it's a story you can't really tell with anyone else. This sort of story told with a new character retroactively added into the 40's won't carry the kind of gravitas you'll get from a character who was actually there. And if IF IF IF it can be done with care and intelligence, with a character who could presumably have been closeted (ie., their love life wasn't such a huge factor in their stories it rules out the idea of them being gay), I'm all for it.

But if it doesnt fit the character, or if it can't be done well, I don't want it done at all.

[MajorHoy]

. . . But an old hero like that coming out? Damn that's some ripe narrative with a lot of potential. That's something we haven't really seen before, and it's a story you can't really tell with anyone else. This sort of story told with a new character retroactively added into the 40's won't carry the kind of gravitas you'll get from a character who was actually there. And if IF IF IF it can be done with care and intelligence, with a character who could presumably have been closeted (ie., their love life wasn't such a huge factor in their stories it rules out the idea of them being gay), I'm all for it.

But if it doesnt fit the character, or if it can't be done well, I don't want it done at all.

The problem is, whether it's "done well" or not can be very subjective, and you don't really know until the story is published. And by then, it's sort of too late to do anything about it.

That's why I don't want DC to do that to any actual Golden Age characters. I don't trust most of their writers these days to do a decent story.
(This is also why I'm buying fewer and fewer current DC titles these days.)

[CaptCleghorn]

The problem is, whether it's "done well" or not can be very subjective, and you don't really know until the story is published. And by then, it's sort of too late to do anything about it.

That's why I don't want DC to do that to any actual Golden Age characters. I don't trust most of their writers these days to do a decent story.
(This is also why I'm buying fewer and fewer current DC titles these days.)

No one here is looking for a poorly done story to fit a theme. DC's had enough success with me on their JSA/Earth Two/whatever franchise that I'd give anything a try. As those of you who have seen my rantings about Tom Taylor and Daniel Wilson know, I may not like it.

A story about a Golden Ager coming out of the closet could suck. But every book coming out could also suck. "It might suck." isn't a good reason to not want something to come out. There are no guarantees in comic books.

[Aahz]

Define "obscure".

Some of us may have grown up reading various reprints of the old Golden Age Stories, so they may not be quite as "obscure" to us. I wasn't really reading comic books during 1995-2010, so some of the characters created then that didn't last long would be more "obscure" from my standpoint.

Firebrand had according to DC wikia 13 appearances in 1941 and 1942, and that about it with his publication history in the golden age. That sound quite obscure fore me.

[Jim Kelly]

I’m not trying to advance one argument over the other, but I can’t help but remember all those stories DC reprinted in the ‘60s and ‘70s where you might really only get one story of an old character and that was enough to spark your imagination and a whole life story appeared in your mind.

[andersonh1]

The problem is, whether it's "done well" or not can be very subjective, and you don't really know until the story is published. And by then, it's sort of too late to do anything about it.

That's why I don't want DC to do that to any actual Golden Age characters. I don't trust most of their writers these days to do a decent story.
(This is also why I'm buying fewer and fewer current DC titles these days.)

Agreed. I'm wary of retcons anyway, and I always favor honoring the printed history and the obvious intent of who these characters were intended to be rather than "reading between the lines" and altering them after decades of stories.

[MajorHoy]

Firebrand had according to DC wikia 13 appearances in 1941 and 1942, and that about it with his publication history in the golden age. That sound quite obscure fore me.

You're ignoring his 1970s appearances in Freedom Fighters.

[Aahz]

You're ignoring his 1970s appearances in Freedom Fighters.

I wasn't aware of it. But that was apparently also only for 5 issues.

[CaptCleghorn]

Obscure is a relative term. To many DC fans. most of the All-Star Squadron heroes are considered obscure. One's individual awareness of a hero doesn't mean everyone else has that same level of awareness.

Even though the original Firebrand's main claim to fame is his sister replacing him.

[MajorHoy]

. . . Even though the original Firebrand's main claim to fame is his sister replacing him.

Again, depends on when people were first aware of the character, and these days, how many people may have ever read a story with the female version of Firebrand?

(And considering Roy hadn't even intended to introduce her in the first place, . . . )

[iron chimp]

A modern look at old characters is not going to be old style. Those characters are going to be in longer stories and will probably change and develop. I'm curious if other modern adaptions of old characters differing from the originals were a roller coaster.

retcons are just a hokey conceit in 2018. Fun in 1988 but flogged to death and as hokey as evil twin stories in 2018

[legion_quest]

DC, Marvel, any published frankly, has to appeal to new readers to survive.

The latest generation of teens, and even younger, have a greater percentage of LGBT identifying people in it.

As such, you want their money, you put out stuff that they may be more interested in reading.

If that means you retcon a character to generate some 'heat' at the start, or because you want a built in character history to play with, that's what it means.

Money makes the world go round, and in the balance, if the publisher feels they can make money off a character being LGBT than they can leaving them in limbo or creating a new character, then that is what they will do.

If you personally dont like it, dont read it - just accept it wasnt a book made for you and move on, and let those it was made for potentially enjoy it.

[MajorHoy]

. . . If you personally dont like it, dont read it - just accept it wasnt a book made for you and move on, and let those it was made for potentially enjoy it.

That just about sums up my general feeling for DC's current crop/crap of comic books these days.