The "retroactively making old DC characters gay/bi/biracial" thread

[CaptCleghorn]

Again, depends on when people were first aware of the character, and these days, how many people may have ever read a story with the female version of Firebrand?

(And considering Roy hadn't even intended to introduce her in the first place, . . . )

I'd put Danette's popularity against Rod's any day. Impuning Danette's fame actually hurts Rod's even more. He was far from a major character by any stretch of the imagination.

[astro@work]

Again, depends on when people were first aware of the character, and these days, how many people may have ever read a story with the female version of Firebrand?

(And considering Roy hadn't even intended to introduce her in the first place, . . . )

Good point. Technically the entire character of Dannette Reilly is a "retcon" since she never existed in the Golden Age. And yet also a good example of adding to the mythos without subtracting. There was nothing in the Golden Age that said Firebrand DIDN'T have a sister. In my book, I wouldn't call that a retcon...or by that standard the 2nd story of EVERY character that tells us something new is a retcon.

Along that thought...if a Golden Age character never really discussed their ethnicities and/or never had a visible personal life of any kind who's to say they weren't half-Hispanic, multi-ethnic within their visible appearance, or quietly LGBT. I would say anything that doesn't contradict something from prior appearances isn't really a retcon, it's just "more" information about them. (That's just my take). So based on that, GA Green Lantern, Flash, Hourman, Atom, Dr. Fate, Starman, would be disingenuous to suddenly be gay. Some other members maybe not so much if they never had visible personal lives on the page indicating relationships one way or the other. We can't assume intent of those long-ago writers other than what they put on the page (unless they made a public statement). But again, if they DID put it on the printed page, we can assume that was their intent.

[MajorHoy]

I'd put Danette's popularity against Rod's any day. Impuning Danette's fame actually hurts Rod's even more. He was far from a major character by any stretch of the imagination.

You do realize who Danette might originally have been if DC had allowed it, don't you?


from Smash Comics #25 (Quality Comics)

[Aahz]

Obscure is a relative term. To many DC fans. most of the All-Star Squadron heroes are considered obscure.

Sure but there is a lot of variation within the Squadron, the main JSA members (and pre crisis the Trinity) being the most popular, and Rod Reilly being probably one of the most obscure ones (he is iirc directly replaced by his Sister).

And therefore having a gay Allan Scott is a big difference from Rod Reilly being gay.

And having Rod Reilly being gay is for most readers not much different than having a completely new gay character.

[Aahz]

DC, Marvel, any published frankly, has to appeal to new readers to survive.

The latest generation of teens, and even younger, have a greater percentage of LGBT identifying people in it.

As such, you want their money, you put out stuff that they may be more interested in reading.

If that means you retcon a character to generate some 'heat' at the start, or because you want a built in character history to play with, that's what it means.

Money makes the world go round, and in the balance, if the publisher feels they can make money off a character being LGBT than they can leaving them in limbo or creating a new character, then that is what they will do.

If you personally dont like it, dont read it - just accept it wasnt a book made for you and move on, and let those it was made for potentially enjoy it.

Honestly it doesn't really seem like LGBT character make much money. DCs biggest success was sofar Batwoman and her book is about to get cancelled because of low sales.

If you have an established character come out that might create some 'heat' for an issues or two but seems to be about it.

[CaptCleghorn]

Good point. Technically the entire character of Dannette Reilly is a "retcon" since she never existed in the Golden Age. And yet also a good example of adding to the mythos without subtracting. There was nothing in the Golden Age that said Firebrand DIDN'T have a sister. In my book, I wouldn't call that a retcon...or by that standard the 2nd story of EVERY character that tells us something new is a retcon.

Along that thought...if a Golden Age character never really discussed their ethnicities and/or never had a visible personal life of any kind who's to say they weren't half-Hispanic, multi-ethnic within their visible appearance, or quietly LGBT. I would say anything that doesn't contradict something from prior appearances isn't really a retcon, it's just "more" information about them. (That's just my take). So based on that, GA Green Lantern, Flash, Hourman, Atom, Dr. Fate, Starman, would be disingenuous to suddenly be gay. Some other members maybe not so much if they never had visible personal lives on the page indicating relationships one way or the other. We can't assume "writers" intent of those long ago writers other than what they put on the page. But again, if they DID put it on the printed page, we can assume that was their intent.

Based on what I've seen and read, it's possible a few creators might have jokingly put "gay" content in books, but it's extremely unlikely they seriously intended any of their characters to be gay. Green Lantern, because of the nu52 Earth 2 version and the Thomas soap opera shenanigans would be the only one of your disingenuous choices I'd disagree with. But you've made a great point about certain characters being inappropriate for this.

[CaptCleghorn]

Sure but there is a lot of variation within the Squadron, the main JSA members (and pre crisis the Trinity) being the most popular, and Rod Reilly being probably one of the most obscure ones (he is iirc directly replaced by his Sister).

And therefore having a gay Allan Scott is a big difference from Rod Reilly being gay.

And having Rod Reilly being gay is for most readers not much different than having a completely new gay character.

That's why I said most of the Squadron. The major JSA members certainly aren't obscure.

[Aahz]

Btw. I'm wondering why no one mentioned the Shing Knight sofar. The change from Sir Justin to Ystina was basically such retroactive change, and actually quite drastic one.

[astro@work]

Based on what I've seen and read, it's possible a few creators might have jokingly put "gay" content in books, but it's extremely unlikely they seriously intended any of their characters to be gay.

Overtly gay, no. But "confirmed bachelor" gay...how do we know that? We don't know that ALL the creators back then were straight do we? (Many, definitely yes due to marriages we know of). Therefore how do we know for 100% fact some of those characters weren't similarly written with a wink/wink angle. The absence of saying "I'm gay" doesn't make a character straight, it makes them "undeclared". But as mentioned, the presence of a Joan Garrick or Lois Lane or even a Molly Mayne is a pretty good indication of the writer's intentions back then.

[astro@work]

Btw. I'm wondering why no one mentioned the Shing Knight sofar. The change from Sir Justin to Ystina was basically such retroactive change, and actually quite drastic one.

I always took Ystina as a completely different character. To my knowledge she didn't replace Sir Justin in continuity (in membership of the Golden Age 7 Soldiers for instance). But that was just my interpretation. Did others read that differently? (Just curious really).

[astro@work]

You do realize who Danette might originally have been if DC had allowed it, don't you?


from Smash Comics #25 (Quality Comics)

Was this the original intended Dannette Firebrand? I'm curious now why she wasn't used!

[Ascended]

The problem is, whether it's "done well" or not can be very subjective, and you don't really know until the story is published. And by then, it's sort of too late to do anything about it.

That's why I don't want DC to do that to any actual Golden Age characters. I don't trust most of their writers these days to do a decent story.
(This is also why I'm buying fewer and fewer current DC titles these days.)

Well, there's subjective and then there's subjective. Some people dislike the Beatles but that doesn't mean they weren't one of, if not the, biggest rock bands ever.

But you're right, it's a gamble. I just happen to think that in this particular instance it's worth rolling the dice. I'd have my concerns, and I usually dislike retcons and reboots.

But I say screw it. Toss the dice and see where they land. It's not like we're talking about characters DC has done much with lately, as far as I'm concerned we really don't have much to lose at this point.

Still, I get where you're coming from. I don't completely agree, but I get it.

........

What if instead of revealing a Golden Ager was gay, they change religion? Don't retcon their faith, just have them find a new one (or lose an old one) in the present day. It wouldn't expand representation of the LGBT community, but it would still expand representation. And I could see, after a lifetime of fighting evil with no end in sight, some Golden Age heroes falling out of their faith (which is generally presumed christian when it's not outright established) and finding a new spiritual path.

[CaptCleghorn]

I always took Ystina as a completely different character. To my knowledge she didn't replace Sir Justin in continuity (in membership of the Golden Age 7 Soldiers for instance). But that was just my interpretation. Did others read that differently? (Just curious really).

Ystina was a different character. She was brand new and nothing about her linked her to Justin's experiences except for the name. Now what her role was intended to be nu52, if any, who knows?

[astro@work]

Ystina was a different character. She was brand new and nothing about her linked her to Justin's experiences except for the name. Now what her role was intended to be nu52, if any, who knows?

Memory is foggy on this one, but wasn't Ystina in the early nu52 series that featured Etrigan, Vandal Savage et al in the Camelot days?
Sir Justin hasn't shown up since nu52, but then again neither have any of the other Golden Age 7 Soldiers, so doesn't necessarily mean anything one way or the other.

[CaptCleghorn]

Memory is foggy on this one, but wasn't Ystina in the early nu52 series that featured Etrigan, Vandal Savage et al in the Camelot days?
Sir Justin hasn't shown up since nu52, but then again neither have any of the other Golden Age 7 Soldiers, so doesn't necessarily mean anything one way or the other.

Ystina might well have been considered a replacement post Flashpoint. But with Doomsday Clock, etc. maybe messing with the Golden Age, who knows?