The "retroactively making old DC characters gay/bi/biracial" thread

[JasonTodd428]

Exactly. We live in a diverse world and a fictional universe should reflect that. The amount of people who get into comics and/or decide to stick with comics because there's a character they can see themselves in is much larger than some think.

Aahz brought up how even some big name characters struggle to sell. Know who don't have a hard time selling? Characters like Squirrel Girl, Moon Girl and Ms. Marvel. They're direct market sales may not be good at all, but they don't need the direct market when they're selling so much in trades. And soon enough, the direct market will be gone. It may still be around in 10 years, but definitely not 20. Along with being better equipped for the digital and book markets, DC needs to speak to a wider, more diverse audience if they want to keep up.

Exactly. Other fictional universes manage to reflect the diverse nature of the world just fine. Star Trek was doing it back when it wasn't popular to do so just as an example. Why should DC be any different than any other fictional universe or any other comic company for that matter? Lion Forge just recently started a superhero line full of diverse characters and their top tier hero and the character whose book started off the line is an African American man. DC needs to move with the times and get serious about good representation if they don't want to be left even further behind. They need to start speaking to a wider, and more diverse readership then the one that the Direct Market is aimed at if they want to remain competitive in the future because that audience isn't going to be around forever.

[Robanker]

Exactly. We live in a diverse world and a fictional universe should reflect that. The amount of people who get into comics and/or decide to stick with comics because there's a character they can see themselves in is much larger than some think.

Aahz brought up how even some big name characters struggle to sell. Know who don't have a hard time selling? Characters like Squirrel Girl, Moon Girl and Ms. Marvel. They're direct market sales may not be good at all, but they don't need the direct market when they're selling so much in trades. And soon enough, the direct market will be gone. It may still be around in 10 years, but definitely not 20. Along with being better equipped for the digital and book markets, DC needs to speak to a wider, more diverse audience if they want to keep up.

All your examples are new* or spin-off characters, though. I don't think anyone is arguing those are a bad idea. The discussion is changing established characters to push an agenda, however necessary or justified one feels it is. Squirrel Girl is an older character, but she wasn't changed to fit who she was. She was a fun girl and remains that way.

Representation is important, but execution is too and that's where the difficulty lies.

* I say "new" in that none of these characters is a departure from history. They are essentially the same character they were introduced as.

[JasonTodd428]

Representation is important, but execution is too and that's where the difficulty lies.

I think it could be done if it was something that added layers to an existing character as someone earlier suggested.

[Aahz]

Exactly. Other fictional universes manage to reflect the diverse nature of the world just fine. Star Trek was doing it back when it wasn't popular to do so just as an example. Why should DC be any different than any other fictional universe or any other comic company for that matter? Lion Forge just recently started a superhero line full of diverse characters and their top tier hero and the character whose book started off the line is an African American man. DC needs to move with the times and get serious about good representation if they don't want to be left even further behind. They need to start speaking to a wider, and more diverse readership then the one that the Direct Market is aimed at if they want to remain competitive in the future because that audience isn't going to be around forever.

But if you just bend characters in existing long running properties, they are for the most part only targeting a small minority within the their existing audience.

[Ascended]

I thought the big reason ppl didn't want Alan gay was that would erase his kids Jade and obsidian?

I think it was more about the complete jettisoning of history; Jade and Obsidian were just two of the more visible casualties of that whole "fresh start" process. And a lot of people thought that Allan being gay, and comfortably so, would mean his kids would never make a return. I'm sure there were a few homophobes out there too, but mostly the complaints I saw came from people who just didn't want to see the history and continuity they loved tossed aside.

[Robanker]

I think it could be done if it was something that added layers to an existing character as someone earlier suggested.

It works with characters like Obsidian, who writers could never really stick with a female love interest. His coming out made sense and he's a great character. In the Earth-2 and Bombshells universe, established heterosexual characters are bisexual or homosexual and it works there too. I don't think we've ever had a better look for Helena Bertinelli than we do now. She makes sense. Adding some Romani heritage to Dick Grayson is also fine.

Changing someone like, say, Dick Grayson to be bisexual is more of a reach when he's been heterosexual for nearly 80 years. That's a larger departure from what has been established. Alan Scott has always come across as reserved regarding his emotions and private life, but he's always been portrayed as heterosexual in the main continuity. I know there are many gay men who marry women and start families before coming out, but I also feel the perfect opportunity passed for Alan-- it would have been most appropriate when he reconciled with his son pre-Flashpoint.

Diversity and representation do matter. Diverse solo books are also known to not sell. The solution does seem to be in team books. That's where to introduce said characters and try to spin them off into minis. Create new sidekicks for heroes. Was anyone's problem with Duke that he was an African American? I thought it was because there didn't seem a good direction for the character prior. Jessica Cruz on the other hand has had a warmer reception, particularly because she works as a rookie with a unique personality.

I think it was more about the complete jettisoning of history; Jade and Obsidian were just two of the more visible casualties of that whole "fresh start" process. And a lot of people thought that Allan being gay, and comfortably so, would mean his kids would never make a return. I'm sure there were a few homophobes out there too, but mostly the complaints I saw came from people who just didn't want to see the history and continuity they loved tossed aside.

Basically this. When you remove something someone cares for in place of another, they're going to be disappointed at least. Enraged at most. It's not a good way to start a new relationship with your customer.

[JasonTodd428]

But if you just bend characters in existing long running properties, they are for the most part only targeting a small minority within the their existing audience.

You're acting like people are wanting to change every straight, white male character that currently exists and I'm not sure that's what anyone here is saying at all. Pretty much all I do want is to see the DCU become inclusive so that it resembles the diversity in the real world more. There are whole demographics out there that DC does a poor job of reaching because they don't utilize their minority characters very well or even at all. They need to do better to be honest.

[CaptCleghorn]

It works with characters like Obsidian, who writers could never really stick with a female love interest. His coming out made sense and he's a great character. In the Earth-2 and Bombshells universe, established heterosexual characters are bisexual or homosexual and it works there too. I don't think we've ever had a better look for Helena Bertinelli than we do now. She makes sense. Adding some Romani heritage to Dick Grayson is also fine.

Changing someone like, say, Dick Grayson to be bisexual is more of a reach when he's been heterosexual for nearly 80 years. That's a larger departure from what has been established. Alan Scott has always come across as reserved regarding his emotions and private life, but he's always been portrayed as heterosexual in the main continuity. I know there are many gay men who marry women and start families before coming out, but I also feel the perfect opportunity passed for Alan-- it would have been most appropriate when he reconciled with his son pre-Flashpoint.

There's a difference between doing something like that to Dick or what was done to Todd and Alan Scott's situation. In Alan's case the character was reimagined as a gay man. It's comic book semantics, but a characters who is rebooted isn't actua;lly the same character. Even an Alan coming in now from WW2 and wearing his red top could be gay and that wou;ld be redoing him as gay, not actually changing him. It might be a detail to some, but for those who are relying on previous history which, let's be honest, was written on a white board and redone many times already.

I want to remind everyone that every character is different and we may be OK with changing sexuality of some, but not of others.

[JasonTodd428]

Diversity and representation do matter. Diverse solo books are also known to not sell. The solution does seem to be in team books. That's where to introduce said characters and try to spin them off into minis. Create new sidekicks for heroes. Was anyone's problem with Duke that he was an African American? I thought it was because there didn't seem a good direction for the character prior. Jessica Cruz on the other hand has had a warmer reception, particularly because she works as a rookie with a unique personality.

The problem with introducing new character straight away into team books is that writers all to often have difficulty in balancing all the members of the team so that they all get enough screen time. Invariably someone gets regulated to being wallpaper. That's exactly what happened with Cyborg in JL for example or John Stewart in GL.

I think a better route might be to make characters be a part of some family or other and introduce them in those solos where they might get more screen time and a chance at some concentrated character development than a team book would be able to provide them. For example Jon Kent was really built up in Lois and Clark and later on in the main Superman books before they spun off Super Sons.

[KurtW95]

Characters created to be a certain race, gender, or sexuality shouldn’t be changed. It’s as simple as that. Changing one of those elements makes them a completely different character. And it’s ridiculous when people try to rewrite history to say that it fits or the character was always that way as seen with people who support Bendis’ change to Iceman. Fact is the stuff that they say could be said about 99% of straight male heroes. Far better to create a new hero or use an underused minority character than lazily change one that s already popular. Changing a character like that just shows the lack of creativity in the writer because they feel the need to piggyback off of an already successful property. People like Dwayne McDuffie created new, original minority characters and told great stories about them. And guess what? People loved them. So don’t argue that the only way do make a popular minority character is to change one that has already been around for 50+ years.

[Robanker]

The problem with introducing new character straight away into team books is that writers all to often have difficulty in balancing all the members of the team so that they all get enough screen time. Invariably someone gets regulated to being wallpaper. That's exactly what happened with Cyborg in JL for example or John Stewart in GL.

I think a better route might be to make characters be a part of some family or other and introduce them in those solos where they might get more screen time and a chance at some concentrated character development than a team book would be able to provide them. For example Jon Kent was really built up in Lois and Clark and later on in the main Superman books before they spun off Super Sons.

I mentioned creating new sidekicks as well. Jackson is a good addition to the Aquaman supporting cast and I'd like to see him developed more.

[Ascended]

Was anyone's problem with Duke that he was an African American? I thought it was because there didn't seem a good direction for the character prior.

That, and Duke getting panel time meant, in the minds of some, that other pre-established Gotham characters were being left in limbo. I think that was the big one; if DC is using Duke, the odds of getting Azreal/Cass/Steph/whoever back seemed lower. New characters, regardless of what they look like or who they sleep with or what church they go to, are sometimes seen as a threat to someone's personal favorite C-lister.

And I mean, if DC had called me up and said "Hey man, we're gonna either push this new black kid you've never heard of, or bring back Jean-Paul Valley. What do you think?" I'd have voted for Azreal, because I loved his old solo and had missed seeing him. Yeah, I want diversity in my books, (most of my pull is pretty diverse actually) but I still have my own favorites I want to see, too.

Exactly. Other fictional universes manage to reflect the diverse nature of the world just fine.

Its true. Star Wars even has *two* black guys now, and it only took seven movies and forty years to get there!

Star Trek was doing it back when it wasn't popular to do so just as an example.

Roddenberry really was ahead of the curve. Trek has done such great things for representation. But let's not church it up; Trek is the exception to the rule, not the standard. Most settings that were created before the 2010's aren't much better at representation than DC or Marvel currently are (and Marvel's efforts seem to be failing them).

They need to start speaking to a wider, and more diverse readership then the one that the Direct Market is aimed at if they want to remain competitive in the future because that audience isn't going to be around forever.

I totally agree with this; DC needs to reach a new audience.

I think the biggest issue the company has is that it's current bread-and-butter audience isn't interested in diversity from DC. DC fans want the classic big name DC characters that everyone on earth is born knowing about; Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, the League, etc. Those are the IP's that current DC fans show up for.

I mean, right now we have a whole imprint full of interesting, fun characters who are also diverse, and no one is reading them. Those New Age heroes were spun out of a huge Bat-Event, had more advertising than anything from DC since Clark kissed Diana, and some of the best talent DC can get. The New Age titles I've read are, at the absolute worst, better than at least half of what DC is publishing. So where are the fans? Reading Batman, Justice League, and Flash.

The New52 was full of books featuring PoC, women, non-superhero titles, and other diverse books. And some of them were quite good. But they were among the first to be cancelled because, again, DC fans show up for the characters who've been around for 70-80 years, not the fresh blood.

DC offers us diversity, and the direct market says "Nah man, I'll get that elsewhere. Gimme that sweet Bat-stuff instead!"

So DC needs to find a way to branch into new avenues and demographics, because the direct market isn't interested in anything new from them.

If it sounds like I'm blaming the fans for DC's lack of diversity, I am. But only a little bit (DC isn't escaping blame here, but it's not 100% on them). Because I've seen (and supported) plenty of books from DC featuring minority characters that no one bothered with.

[Mutant God]

I don't care for changing characters's backgrounds, but they are exceptions: Robin being Romanian, The Kanes (and maybe Martha Kane-Wayne) being Jewish, Kyle Rayner's father is Mexican, Huntress having a darker skin tone (since some Sicilians do have dark sin tones),

[Robanker]

That, and Duke getting panel time meant, in the minds of some, that other pre-established Gotham characters were being left in limbo. I think that was the big one; if DC is using Duke, the odds of getting Azreal/Cass/Steph/whoever back seemed lower. New characters, regardless of what they look like or who they sleep with or what church they go to, are sometimes seen as a threat to someone's personal favorite C-lister.

And I mean, if DC had called me up and said "Hey man, we're gonna either push this new black kid you've never heard of, or bring back Jean-Paul Valley. What do you think?" I'd have voted for Azreal, because I loved his old solo and had missed seeing him. Yeah, I want diversity in my books, (most of my pull is pretty diverse actually) but I still have my own favorites I want to see, too.



Its true. Star Wars even has *two* black guys now, and it only took seven movies and forty years to get there!



Roddenberry really was ahead of the curve. Trek has done such great things for representation. But let's not church it up; Trek is the exception to the rule, not the standard. Most settings that were created before the 2010's aren't much better at representation than DC or Marvel currently are (and Marvel's efforts seem to be failing them).



I totally agree with this; DC needs to reach a new audience.

I think the biggest issue the company has is that it's current bread-and-butter audience isn't interested in diversity from DC. DC fans want the classic big name DC characters that everyone on earth is born knowing about; Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, the League, etc. Those are the IP's that current DC fans show up for.

I mean, right now we have a whole imprint full of interesting, fun characters who are also diverse, and no one is reading them. Those New Age heroes were spun out of a huge Bat-Event, had more advertising than anything from DC since Clark kissed Diana, and some of the best talent DC can get. The New Age titles I've read are, at the absolute worst, better than at least half of what DC is publishing. So where are the fans? Reading Batman, Justice League, and Flash.

The New52 was full of books featuring PoC, women, non-superhero titles, and other diverse books. And some of them were quite good. But they were among the first to be cancelled because, again, DC fans show up for the characters who've been around for 70-80 years, not the fresh blood.

DC offers us diversity, and the direct market says "Nah man, I'll get that elsewhere. Gimme that sweet Bat-stuff instead!"

So DC needs to find a way to branch into new avenues and demographics, because the direct market isn't interested in anything new from them.

If it sounds like I'm blaming the fans for DC's lack of diversity, I am. But only a little bit (DC isn't escaping blame here, but it's not 100% on them). Because I've seen (and supported) plenty of books from DC featuring minority characters that no one bothered with.

That's a very reasonable perspective, and we fans are indeed responsible for the problem as well. I will say, however, I don't mind a new character getting a push as long as it's interesting. I'm glad Cass, Steph and the like are back now, but I can't blame Duke for that. It's a problem with reboots, which usually end up bringing old concepts back to be resold as new ideas or spins. By that virtue, new characters shouldn't even exist for the first few years of a reboot, thus defeating the purpose entirely because you're just mucking about with continuity.

Part of the problem also lies in the cost of the hobby. When it's $4 a pop, you're going to read the stuff you care about first and branch out second if you can afford to at all. This is bleeding into the argument that digital comics should be cheaper than physical, which they should. It's why, even though it's fun to discuss, I don't see the issue of diversity ever really coming to a concise answer everyone's pleased with. It's going to latch into other problems in comics right now, which are failed efforts on DC's part, the fans, sales, etc.

Should it happen? Should it be something DC is very aware of and constantly working toward improving? A RESOUNDING yes. It's imperative that they continue to find new ways to integrate diversity into the DCU to better reflect the world reading it.

DC does need to reach new audiences, though. Because none of us are getting any younger and they need to find a way to bolster sales and adapt to a new market.

[MajorHoy]

I thought the big reason ppl didn't want Alan gay was that would erase his kids Jade and obsidian?

I don't know how much that would be true. After all, men and women have been married in the past with families before one of them comes out as being gay. There's nothing that technically says Alan couldn't have been a gay man who hadn't admitted to himself he was gay when he was in the relationship that resulted in the births of his kids. (Besides, he didn't even realize he was a father until Jade and Obsidian were much older.)