Bleeding Cool Says DC Will Try To Remove Marriages After Next Crisis Event

[Jackalope89]

I really really really hope this is true.

I can't connect with Rebirth/Reborn Superman and family at all.

I loved the New52.

Getting rid of the supermarriage and Jon seem like big steps in the right direction, combined with a reboot of sorts. I doubt we'll get back my favorite Superman, the true New52 Superman with the high collar and Kryptonian body armor, but maybe we could at least see a new start akin to the New52 with a new edgier Superman starting at the same point in his life, essentially taking the crux of the New52 concept (Age, attitude, marital status, atmosphere, etc.) and just writing it out in a different way with a fresh start.

Give me back the New52 Superman, I'll buy those comics. Give me a new Superman similar to New52 Superman, I'll give it a try. That goes for if they decide to make him the only Superman in the DC Comics universe, or if he exists side by side with the current one but on different earths or whatever. Give me a book that gives me what I want and I'll buy that book regardless of whether the rest of the DC Comics Universe is following suit or not.

To be honest, I am so alienated by the Rebirth stuff at this point that I didn't even buy Action Comics #1,000.

And yet, a lot of older fans, from the previous 70 years, were put off by New52 and "edgy" Supes.

I've really liked the Lois and Jon dynamic with Clark, and the DC universe at large. It works, its fun, and brings a whole new chapter to Superman's life.

If this new crisis thing continues, and does erase the marriages and such, I would probably drop DC as well. And DC as a comic book company would probably fold, because the New52, barring the initial release, did a pretty hefty number on DC. So why they would think going back to such a proven bad idea, is beyond me.

[superduperman]

Didio and Johns want different things. And it sounds like each have people on "their side" of things because one minute one guy gets their way at the next the other guy gets his. So split the difference. Let Didio spearhead a new verse. You just cancel all the titles that perform like crud (and there's a decent amount of those) to accommodate it. Will some people complain that its all the same characters? Probably. But it'd sell better than the fringe stuff it'd be replacing that never catches on.

After the event you start the secondary continuity over from scratch and with the legacy continuity, you do a bit of a timejump, and actually show that the characters have aged some. And use that concept of growing older and legacy for that line on an even greater than they can get away with even right now moving forward.

Even the friggin logic within the lore writes itself. COIE gets rid of the multiverse and in the process destroyed the decades-old formula of the main two Earths. A final bookend brings that back, the way the multiverse originally was and is "supposed" to be.

Johns is more or less out of the picture now with the exception of Doomsday Clock. So that might explain this. Without Johns to fight with, Didio can get his way without holding back. The only solution I see here is something like what you propose where they bring back the infinite multiverse and aren't afraid to publish books that take place in more than one universe. We're already seeing this with stuff like Bombshells, Wildstorm, Earth One and the Injustice books. Expand this line of thinking to something like the New 52 or younger versions of the characters. An Ulitmates universe is the only way I can see this working. Which Didio might not consider good enough. Especially since we already have something like that with Earth One that just isn't being used.

[Flash Gordon]

I can't keep up with all this!

[Lvenger]

I really really really hope this is true.

I can't connect with Rebirth/Reborn Superman and family at all.

I loved the New52.

Getting rid of the supermarriage and Jon seem like big steps in the right direction, combined with a reboot of sorts. I doubt we'll get back my favorite Superman, the true New52 Superman with the high collar and Kryptonian body armor (Although I hope we do), but maybe we could at least see a new start akin to the New52 with a new edgier Superman starting at the same point in his life, essentially taking the crux of the New52 concept (Age, attitude, marital status, atmosphere, art style, etc.) and just writing it out in a different way with a fresh start (Similar to how the Rebirth Superman was kind of the Pre-Flashpoint Superman and kind of just a new Superman in a similar style as Pre-Flashpoint).

Give me back the New52 Superman, I'll buy those comics. Give me a new Superman similar to New52 Superman, I'll give it a try. That goes for if they decide to make him the only Superman in the DC Comics universe, or if he exists side by side with the current one but on different earths or whatever. Give me a book that gives me what I want and I'll buy that book regardless of whether the rest of the DC Comics Universe is following suit or not.

Maybe if they do it on two separate earths, we can at least get rid of the trunks for the potential rebooted one and give that younger Superman in his 20s or 30s a modern costume ala New52 Superman, even if it looks different from New52 Superman's costume. Beyond the fact that I hate the trunks, it'd also be a visual distinctive between the two potential Superman lines. The more the two men are drawn differently, the less fan confusion a setup like that would cause.

To be honest, I am so alienated by the Rebirth stuff at this point that I didn't even buy Action Comics #1,000.

Respectfully, what you're asking for would alienate a lot more Superman fans than it would appeal to if DC erased Rebirth for the New 52. The unfavourable reception of New 52 Superman is proof of that and I'm afraid that many of the things you hate are well liked by the majority of current Superman fans. The marriage, Jon, an older wiser Superman etc Plus DC won't put the two Supermen on separate Earths in different titles, they're not interested in an Ultimate Marvel approach. If the shoe were on the other foot, I would be alienated from the character and so would many others. If the New 52 was the way forward for Superman, we'd still have him to this day.

[Sacred Knight]

I'll be perfectly honest, I liked most of Didio's ideas for Superman. I mean, I wouldn't want the guy actually writing him, but the stuff other writers went with in the New 52 I liked. But all that said, he just can't think he can do this again. I mean, even Rebirth isn't a complete continuity because of this "missing ten years" storyline that seems like it will never end. The New 52 was a mish-mash because they waffled on what they wanted to keep and what they wanted to jettison. And pre-FP was a mess after IC happened and failed to give clarity. Things haven't been steady since before Identity Crisis. I mean, that's mind blowing. If you want to start again, start a new line. And solidify this current one with clarity. Rebooting again is just lose-lose. You give yourself an immediate handicap with the resentment factor. I didn't fully appreciate it before because I generally don't feel that way, and still don't. But I see its effects now. And they only doubled that effect when they then went back to the old continuity, as they then alienated yet another group.

I know they haven't been interested in the "Ultimate" look before now. But IMO they better start if they're serious about going back to a reboot mindest. Because it can't actually be a reboot. Not again. If you're going to have a continuity, at least give it a somewhat steady foundation. And when all this conflict disrupts that, hey why the hell not two? Hell why not more, the appeal of these characters go beyond just one solid continuity anyway. Its no coincidence that the most celebrated Superman story of the modern era didn't even take place in an ongoing continuity. It was its own thing.

[JasonTodd428]

And yet, a lot of older fans, from the previous 70 years, were put off by New52 and "edgy" Supes.

I'm an older fan but I wasn't really into Superman until more recently then a lot of others here and the "edgy" New52 Supes was my first attempted entry point into Superman comics. I have to say as a new reader at the time I found that version of the character to be off putting as well so I don't think its just the older fans that felt that way.

I've really liked the Lois and Jon dynamic with Clark, and the DC universe at large. It works, its fun, and brings a whole new chapter to Superman's life.

And the family dynamic was exactly what attracted me to both Lois and Clark and then the Rebirth Superman titles and it has been the thing that has kept me reading them. I haven't dropped either book thus far whereas I dropped the N52 iterations of both several times because I'd get bored after an issue or two.

[SuperCrab]

If this new crisis thing continues, and does erase the marriages and such, I would probably drop DC as well. And DC as a comic book company would probably fold

I think that's an exaggeration. I don't think any creative direction, even if fell completely flat, would cause DC Comics to actually close up shop anytime soon. A drastic decrease in sales would just mean putting out fewer books. Maybe one Superman monthly instead of what they were doing until recently- two Superman twice monthlies. That type of thing. There still seems to be a lot of room between current levels of product coming out and nothing that could be profitable.

Respectfully, what you're asking for would alienate a lot more Superman fans than it would appeal to if DC erased Rebirth for the New 52.

One thing DC Comics might be looking at is an aging demographic for comics like Superman. If you just play it to retain your current fans and not appeal to new ones, it'll be a slow decline that eventually ends the cultural relevancy of the character. While the current Superman may be well positioned to retain older fans who've been reading for 40 years or whatever, I think the New52 Superman or someone like him would be better positioned to attract new fans in the long run.

If the New 52 was the way forward for Superman, we'd still have him to this day.

I think the New52 Superman could well have been the way forward, they just didn't give it a fair chance. It's sales numbers were quite good pre-Truth arc, and they never really gave the character any time to come out of the slump that ensued. There was also sloppy continuity and constantly rejiggered creative staffs on tight reigns, 40 issue crossovers, higher prices, etc.. And then you add to that the fact that a reconfigured Superman probably needs a while to attract new fans, that you understand after an initial surge, some older fans may drop off finding that the new guy doesn't appeal to them, and that it may take a while for them to find the people who would like him who are currently reading Marvel comics or no comics at all.

Imagine if New52 Superman had launched with top authors and illustrators given extended runs and a continuity that was all mapped out for or by them in advance- where they knew this Superman's history and future and could use it as reference, and closely collaborated with each other. Imagine a $2.99 cover price and no huge crossover event type things where people had to buy 6 zillion random titles in a short span of time to get the full story. Imagine no Truth arc- or just a shortened Truth arc (I honestly think a Truth story line that wrapped in 3-4 months across 2 titles instead of 4, and came out in relatively sequential order, might have been really good- there were some really strong moments and issues in there, it's just that it took *forever* and started to get really old by the time it was over with like 9-10 months of 4 issues a month- and we we got the true chronological start of the Truth story after the middle part instead of in a logical progression). Things may have gone differently.

[Rod G]

I really really really hope this is true.

I can't connect with Rebirth/Reborn Superman and family at all.

I loved the New52.

Getting rid of the supermarriage and Jon seem like big steps in the right direction, combined with a reboot of sorts. I doubt we'll get back my favorite Superman, the true New52 Superman with the high collar and Kryptonian body armor (Although I hope we do), but maybe we could at least see a new start akin to the New52 with a new edgier Superman starting at the same point in his life, essentially taking the crux of the New52 concept (Age, attitude, marital status, atmosphere, art style, etc.) and just writing it out in a different way with a fresh start (Similar to how the Rebirth Superman was kind of the Pre-Flashpoint Superman and kind of just a new Superman in a similar style as Pre-Flashpoint).

Give me back the New52 Superman, I'll buy those comics. Give me a new Superman similar to New52 Superman, I'll give it a try. That goes for if they decide to make him the only Superman in the DC Comics universe, or if he exists side by side with the current one but on different earths or whatever. Give me a book that gives me what I want and I'll buy that book regardless of whether the rest of the DC Comics Universe is following suit or not.

Maybe if they do it on two separate earths, we can at least get rid of the trunks for the potential rebooted one and give that younger Superman in his 20s or 30s a modern costume ala New52 Superman, even if it looks different from New52 Superman's costume. Beyond the fact that I hate the trunks, it'd also be a visual distinctive between the two potential Superman lines. The more the two men are drawn differently, the less fan confusion a setup like that would cause.

To be honest, I am so alienated by the Rebirth stuff at this point that I didn't even buy Action Comics #1,000.

I understand how you feel, SuperCrab, I do.

While I’m okay with Superman being married and a dad, most of what Rebirth did with him felt like a regression.

And don’t get me started with recent developments regarding Luthor.

[SuperCrab]

As an aside, while comparing a New52 type Superman to a Rebirth type Superman is always interesting and a subject that fans are passionate about on both sides, a reboot wouldn't necessarily mean that they come out of it with a Superman who is one thing or the other.

The result of a reboot could just mean a classic version of Superman without any of the "add-ons" we'd associated with the New52 or Rebirth. He's just the Superman archetype, you know? The wife and kid would be gone, but the classic costume would stay, etc.. You know, just purely rolling back the marriage and the son, basically.

It's possible Superman may even remember this continuity, and grieve his lost wife and son, and then have to deal with a Lois Lane who only knows him as Clark Kent, the guy she works with, while he knows her, or a version of her, as much more.

I mean, we always think one or the other, but maybe DC Comics wants a middle ground.

The movie Superman is married to Lois Lane, but younger than Rebirth Superman, without a child, and with a different costume.

My feeling in retrospect is that it was likely the plan when Rebirth was first conceived that eventually we'd wind up with the New52 Superman and the New52 Lois caring for their son from a different timeline and growing closer in the process, possibly leading to a romantic relationship, perhaps with a costume change. Remember when he made that comeback for part of an issue in the Reborn arc as Superman Red, saving Rebirth Lois and Rebirth Jon from falling and flying them up in his arms and confronting Mxy? I think it was Dan Jurgens who alluded to the plan being adjusted due to a positive response to the Rebirth Superman- implying that the New52 Superman may have been planned to return in some form and supercede the Rebirth Superman if the Rebirth sales had bombed by the time Reborn hit.

There are all sorts of variations that could come into play. As an another example, if they really want a childless unmarried younger Superman, but also want Jon Kent as Superboy, Superboy could be aged up a tad and featured only in his own comic or Teen Titans, a refugee from a universe that no longer exists, ala Powergirl Post-Crisis. Jon could reject the new Superman as his father, noting that they only have a 10 year age difference or something, and not have a relationship with him apart from those big crossovers where everyone joins together to fight a menace.

They also may view both directions as failures to one degree or another and really come up out of a reboot with a Superman who is distinctly different from the ones who came before, including New52 and Rebirth/Reborn.

[JAK]

One thing DC Comics might be looking at is an aging demographic for comics like Superman. If you just play it to retain your current fans and not appeal to new ones, it'll be a slow decline that eventually ends the cultural relevancy of the character. While the current Superman may be well positioned to retain older fans who've been reading for 40 years or whatever, I think the New52 Superman or someone like him would be better positioned to attract new fans in the long run.

But... that assumes that only current fans would like what's going on now. And that's not the case, shown by the post just above - a "new" reader who didn't like the 52 and did like Rebirth/Reborn. Given how people look at Superman socially anyway, him being a father actually has a chance to turn some of that on it's head - it makes sense that he's like that *because* he's a father.. that kind of thing. I think it's good that there's variety in characters anyway - 30 characters all being "hot single 20-somethings" is it's own kind of generic, when you think about it.

Plenty of characters have rich, long histories that are celebrated without having to do a new one every 2-5 years. I think it's about time DC own up to the fact that that's their future. They can't escape it.

I think the New52 Superman could well have been the way forward, they just didn't give it a fair chance. It's sales numbers were quite good pre-Truth arc, and they never really gave the character any time to come out of the slump that ensued. There was also sloppy continuity and constantly rejiggered creative staffs on tight reigns, 40 issue crossovers, higher prices, etc.. And then you add to that the fact that a reconfigured Superman probably needs a while to attract new fans, that you understand after an initial surge, some older fans may drop off finding that the new guy doesn't appeal to them, and that it may take a while for them to find the people who would like him who are currently reading Marvel comics or no comics at all.

Imagine if New52 Superman had launched with top authors and illustrators given extended runs and a continuity that was all mapped out for or by them in advance- where they knew this Superman's history and future and could use it as reference, and closely collaborated with each other.

You're right - if he'd been given half a chance, it could have been better. DC started off screwing their own pooch with their "edgy" marketing and PR statements that sometimes seemed tailor-made to piss off the then-current fans of their books. Then, after the New52 reboot, books *still* shipped late. And then, 2 issues after a team starts their book, it's announced that their run will end in 8 issues. All of these things show piss-poor management at a time when a lot of eyeballs are on their product.

But DC has put itself into an odd position: Post Identity Crisis, as has been said, they've done tiny reboot after tiny reboot, followed by a BIG half-reboot and another re/half-deboot. Doing it again, this soon, would show no courage and no direction in the company. Fans would leave, pissed again, and even if they brought New52 back wholesale.... can you trust that it'd stay? Imagining myself as a New52 fan, I wouldn't trust DC with a 10-foot pole. I'd just be waiting for them to get cold feet again and screw with things, and that's not a merry-go-round I'd have any interest in.

[superduperman]

I'll be perfectly honest, I liked most of Didio's ideas for Superman. I mean, I wouldn't want the guy actually writing him, but the stuff other writers went with in the New 52 I liked. But all that said, he just can't think he can do this again. I mean, even Rebirth isn't a complete continuity because of this "missing ten years" storyline that seems like it will never end. The New 52 was a mish-mash because they waffled on what they wanted to keep and what they wanted to jettison. And pre-FP was a mess after IC happened and failed to give clarity. Things haven't been steady since before Identity Crisis. I mean, that's mind blowing. If you want to start again, start a new line. And solidify this current one with clarity. Rebooting again is just lose-lose. You give yourself an immediate handicap with the resentment factor. I didn't fully appreciate it before because I generally don't feel that way, and still don't. But I see its effects now. And they only doubled that effect when they then went back to the old continuity, as they then alienated yet another group.

I know they haven't been interested in the "Ultimate" look before now. But IMO they better start if they're serious about going back to a reboot mindest. Because it can't actually be a reboot. Not again. If you're going to have a continuity, at least give it a somewhat steady foundation. And when all this conflict disrupts that, hey why the hell not two? Hell why not more, the appeal of these characters go beyond just one solid continuity anyway. Its no coincidence that the most celebrated Superman story of the modern era didn't even take place in an ongoing continuity. It was its own thing.

They're going to have to start getting over their aversion to an Ultimates style universe if they are serious about starting from scratch. Fans won't put up with yet another hard reboot that takes everything away again. In what might be seen as a sign of how sick fans are of reboots, orders for the MOS mini aren't going very well. Bendis talk of it being the equivalent of COIE may have scared off potential readers. I'm curious, which Superman story are you referring to?

[Sacred Knight]

I was referring to All-Star Superman. It resides in its own world, really. Superman For All Seasons is another example.

[Truman Burbank]

New 52 Superman wasn't Superman, and that was always going to be a fatal flaw. It was a more traditional Superboy scenario, with modern Superboy characteristics, being presented as Superman.

There are plenty of ways to tell different stories without damaging the foundation of the character, and DC needs to use those.

[superduperman]

But... that assumes that only current fans would like what's going on now. And that's not the case, shown by the post just above - a "new" reader who didn't like the 52 and did like Rebirth/Reborn. Given how people look at Superman socially anyway, him being a father actually has a chance to turn some of that on it's head - it makes sense that he's like that *because* he's a father.. that kind of thing. I think it's good that there's variety in characters anyway - 30 characters all being "hot single 20-somethings" is it's own kind of generic, when you think about it.

Plenty of characters have rich, long histories that are celebrated without having to do a new one every 2-5 years. I think it's about time DC own up to the fact that that's their future. They can't escape it.



You're right - if he'd been given half a chance, it could have been better. DC started off screwing their own pooch with their "edgy" marketing and PR statements that sometimes seemed tailor-made to piss off the then-current fans of their books. Then, after the New52 reboot, books *still* shipped late. And then, 2 issues after a team starts their book, it's announced that their run will end in 8 issues. All of these things show piss-poor management.

But DC has put itself into an odd position: Post Identity Crisis, as has been said, they've done tiny reboot after tiny reboot, followed by a BIG half-reboot and another re/half-deboot. Doing it again, this soon, would show no courage and no direction in the company. Fans would leave, pissed again, and even if they brought New52 back wholesale.... can you trust that it'd stay? Imagining myself as a New52 fan, I wouldn't trust DC with a 10-foot pole. I'd just be waiting for them to get cold feet again and screw with things, and that's not a merry-go-round I'd have any interest in.

Speaking as a New 52 fan I can tell you you are 100% right. I don't trust them to bring him back properly. At this point, they could do a Superman that gives me everything I want and I still wouldn't trust them. I think that's the real problem. What is the point anymore? In five years he'll be someone different anyway.

[JAK]

My feeling in retrospect is that it was likely the plan when Rebirth was first conceived that eventually we'd wind up with the New52 Superman and the New52 Lois caring for their son from a different timeline and growing closer in the process, possibly leading to a romantic relationship, perhaps with a costume change. Remember when he made that comeback for part of an issue in the Reborn arc as Superman Red, saving Rebirth Lois and Rebirth Jon from falling and flying them up in his arms and confronting Mxy? I think it was Dan Jurgens who alluded to the plan being adjusted due to a positive response to the Rebirth Superman- implying that the New52 Superman may have been planned to return in some form and supercede the Rebirth Superman if the Rebirth sales had bombed by the time Reborn hit.

I don't think that's the case - originally, the plan was for New52 Clark and Lois to have Jon in that 5 years later "Future's End" thing. That was Dan's original idea. It was scrapped for that story, but then used in Convergence. The plan for Rebirth/Reborn originally was for things to play out longer and for both Superman to meet more fully (can't remember where I read that), but there were a few times that Dan said that merging them was always the plan at some point - it was the how and the timetable that got shifted/moved up. If that helps any.