Beyond Refresh: Re-BOOT?

[SiegePerilous02]

Defeating the God of War and holding her own against Doomsday are feats, and the lassos powers are on display. And the movies get far too much else right to not take SOME influence from.

[Nyssane]

I'm wary of King after how he used Diana in his Superfriends arc on Batman. I'm a proponent that everyone should get a second chance but, it seems like he needs to do a ton of research on her first.

It's strange because he does such an amazing job with Barda in the Mister Miracle series. If he does get the WW gig I imagine (or at least hope, since many writers actually don't) he will do his research and read some backissues to get a feel for the character.

I haven't read much of Snyder but I know he's one of DC's golden boys right now so he'd at least bring in more readers, and possibly bring back some that Robinson scared away.

Seeley is who I want out of the three, though.

[BiteTheBullet]

Defeating the God of War and holding her own against Doomsday are feats, and the lassos powers are on display. And the movies get far too much else right to not take SOME influence from.

Getting trounced by Superman (by this I mean there was no question who the top dog was) within seconds and getting her ass handed to her by Steppenwolf aren't great feats. You can't tell me that she fared well against either of them.

I will give you the other feats that you described, but she did pull out the proverbial powers out of her ass against Ares at the end. If she has these type of powers, why not use them against Doomsday or Steppenwolf? Does she levitate like she apparently did against Ares, and if so, why haven't we seen this since? It might have done her some good to levitate as the water was coming at them with their fight against Steppenwolf in the sewers (or whatever that was).

The lasso apparently does not work very well on Superman. Too bad they nerfed that power.

[Koriand'r]

Getting trounced by Superman (by this I mean there was no question who the top dog was) within seconds and getting her ass handed to her by Steppenwolf aren't great feats. You can't tell me that she fared well against either of them.

I will give you the other feats that you described, but she did pull out the proverbial powers out of her ass against Ares at the end. If she has these type of powers, why not use them against Doomsday or Steppenwolf? Does she levitate like she apparently did against Ares, and if so, why haven't we seen this since? It might have done her some good to levitate as the water was coming at them with their fight against Steppenwolf in the sewers (or whatever that was).

The lasso apparently does not work very well on Superman. Too bad they nerfed that power.

Thanks for saving me a lot of typing. lol

[SiegePerilous02]

Getting trounced by Superman (by this I mean there was no question who the top dog was) within seconds and getting her ass handed to her by Steppenwolf aren't great feats. You can't tell me that she fared well against either of them.

Superman being top dog does not equate to her being weak, and he spent the last two movies (that far more people saw than this one) getting trounced by everyone under the sun, and she had a better showing against the monster that killed him than he did for various reasons.

She loses sometimes in the comics too. To Superman at times, and at times she defeats him.

Meanwhile, her powers were more in line with what you want in the DCAU, but everything else about her and her world was utterly terrible. Instead of looking at the glass as eternally half empty, why not half full? Especially as unlike the DCAU which is finished and we're stuck with its pitiful offerings, this is still ongoing.

And everyone gets scaled down in the movies. Like everyone in the MCU.

I will give you the other feats that you described, but she did pull out the proverbial powers out of her ass against Ares at the end. If she has these type of powers, why not use them against Doomsday or Steppenwolf? Does she levitate like she apparently did against Ares, and if so, why haven't we seen this since? It might have done her some good to levitate as the water was coming at them with their fight against Steppenwolf in the sewers (or whatever that was).

The movie bombed. They can contradict it in WW2 and nobody will care. She can fly and nobody will give a crap because nobody went out to see JL.

My answer for why she didn't do it against Steppenwolf: the movie sucked, and who cares?

The lasso apparently does not work very well on Superman. Too bad they nerfed that power.

They've been nerfing the damn things powers for decades. This is not Marston's Lasso of Submission we are talking about. That would have been a different story.

And do you judge everything Wonder Woman related by how Superman is used?

[BiteTheBullet]

Superman being top dog does not equate to her being weak, and he spent the last two movies (that far more people saw than this one) getting trounced by everyone under the sun, and she had a better showing against the monster that killed him than he did for various reasons.

She loses sometimes in the comics too. To Superman at times, and at times she defeats him.

Meanwhile, her powers were more in line with what you want in the DCAU, but everything else about her and her world was utterly terrible. Instead of looking at the glass as eternally half empty, why not half full? Especially as unlike the DCAU which is finished and we're stuck with its pitiful offerings, this is still ongoing.

And everyone gets scaled down in the movies. Like everyone in the MCU.




The movie bombed. They can contradict it in WW2 and nobody will care. She can fly and nobody will give a crap because nobody went out to see JL.

My answer for why she didn't do it against Steppenwolf: the movie sucked, and who cares?



They've been nerfing the damn things powers for decades. This is not Marston's Lasso of Submission we are talking about. That would have been a different story.

And do you judge everything Wonder Woman related by how Superman is used?

With respect to movies, yes, I will judge Wonder Woman with respect to Superman because that is all I have. Superman needed no one to deal with Steppenwolf and company. This was painfully obvious in the last fight, especially when he said 'Is this guy still giving you trouble' (might not have quoted it exactly).

So, myself and others have repeatedly said that we don't need Wonder Woman to win every battle put before her. But at least respect the character, because there was no respect to her, or the other Justice Leaguer's in that movie. It was and should have been titled, Superman and his sidekicks.

[Koriand'r]

With respect to movies, yes, I will judge Wonder Woman with respect to Superman because that is all I have. Superman needed no one to deal with Steppenwolf and company. This was painfully obvious in the last fight, especially when he said 'Is this guy still giving you trouble' (might not have quoted it exactly).

So, myself and others have repeatedly said that we don't need Wonder Woman to win every battle put before her. But at least respect the character, because there was no respect to her, or the other Justice Leaguer's in that movie. It was and should have been titled, Superman and his sidekicks.

Exactly, the Amazons were treated with more than respect than Wonder Woman and I feel they were better depicted than in her own solo film.

[SiegePerilous02]

With respect to movies, yes, I will judge Wonder Woman with respect to Superman because that is all I have.

No it's not. You have three cinematic appearances with another on the way, and 2 of them don't have Superman in it. One of them that does shows her putting a better showing against one of his monsters than he does due to her experience level. You often seem to react to JL as if it spoils the whole thing, but that overlooks a LOT of good we've gotten as well. Frankly, WW fans don't have a lot to complain about. I'd say Superman fans do, considering what a crap show his showings have been, and fat load of good JL did besides showing off Cavill's acting chops (along with his horribly CGI'd face).

And it's, IMO, kind of needless. JL sucked for a multitude of reasons. It bombed. They are moving away from it as fast as they can. One crappy movie that less people saw than BvS, her solo and most likely her sequel isn't worth trashing the whole continuity and not recognizing its many good points.

Superman needed no one to deal with Steppenwolf and company. This was painfully obvious in the last fight, especially when he said 'Is this guy still giving you trouble' (might not have quoted it exactly).

So, myself and others have repeatedly said that we don't need Wonder Woman to win every battle put before her. But at least respect the character, because there was no respect to her, or the other Justice Leaguer's in that movie. It was and should have been titled, Superman and his sidekicks.

If you don't need her to win every battle, then you must see that she's won far more than she's lost right? She defeated Ares, had several other victories in her own film, and kind of showed up Superman against Doomsday in a movie she's only guest starring in. And yet one loss is ruining it for you.

Exactly, the Amazons were treated with more than respect than Wonder Woman and I feel they were better depicted than in her own solo film.

Um, how? They didn't do anything she couldn't do.

[BiteTheBullet]

No it's not. You have three cinematic appearances with another on the way, and 2 of them don't have Superman in it. One of them that does shows her putting a better showing against one of his monsters than he does due to her experience level. You often seem to react to JL as if it spoils the whole thing, but that overlooks a LOT of good we've gotten as well. Frankly, WW fans don't have a lot to complain about. I'd say Superman fans do, considering what a crap show his showings have been, and fat load of good JL did besides showing off Cavill's acting chops (along with his horribly CGI'd face).

And it's, IMO, kind of needless. JL sucked for a multitude of reasons. It bombed. They are moving away from it as fast as they can. One crappy movie that less people saw than BvS, her solo and most likely her sequel isn't worth trashing the whole continuity and not recognizing its many good points.

If you don't need her to win every battle, then you must see that she's won far more than she's lost right? She defeated Ares, had several other victories in her own film, and kind of showed up Superman against Doomsday in a movie she's only guest starring in. And yet one loss is ruining it for you.

Actually, of Wonder Woman's 3 appearances in film, Superman has been in 2 of them. Not sure why you think otherwise.

When Wondy doesn't fly in her 2nd solo film, then I guess the dreaded JL movie will still be in canon.

And what victories other than Ares did she have in her solo movie? If you are talking about her fights with the normal grunts/soldiers, I would hardly consider that a victory. Her No-man's Land scene needed her teammates for her to get to the 'next level' as well as helping her jump up onto the tower. For me, anything other than a super baddie ultimately doesn't count for a superpowered hero like Wonder Woman is supposed to be. She should be shredding people like soldiers just like a kung fu artist goes through a martial arts school until he meets the master.

And her one loss, as you put it, against Superman and I would also say against Steppenwolf were so bad, that yes, it ruined for me her character. I could maybe forget about her loss of flying, but her disrespected showing against Superman is just too much. Maybe you like your alpha male Superman to be so damn powerful as to make the rest of the league a minor annoyance, but I don't. That was just a horrible showing, and later on when they take on Steppenwolf as a group and Supes comes in to save the day after saving a whole apartment complex to show up the Flash, is just the topping on the cake, at least for Superman fans.

[SiegePerilous02]

Actually, of Wonder Woman's 3 appearances in film, Superman has been in 2 of them. Not sure why you think otherwise.

Since her sequel is starting production soon, she's got four. And he won't be in it, unless he shows up as Super Baby.

When Wondy doesn't fly in her 2nd solo film, then I guess the dreaded JL movie will still be in canon.

What does it matter if it is? Nobody is going to force you to watch it again, and it will have little relevance to the sequel. Do you let every bad story in the comic canon ruin good runs for you? It's the same thing.

And what victories other than Ares did she have in her solo movie? If you are talking about her fights with the normal grunts/soldiers, I would hardly consider that a victory. Her No-man's Land scene needed her teammates for her to get to the 'next level' as well as helping her jump up onto the tower. For me, anything other than a super baddie ultimately doesn't count for a superpowered hero like Wonder Woman is supposed to be. She should be shredding people like soldiers just like a kung fu artist goes through a martial arts school until he meets the master.

She's got Ares, stood up to Doomsday, and has Cheetah in her sequel. She fought soldiers yes, but in the comics by her actual creator, she fought soldiers and costumed super villains. It would defeat the purpose of the film being set during a World War and the philosophy Ares represents if there were no soldiers and she had nothing to do with them. The Golden Age Cheetah was also a nut in a costume, and the filmmakers aren't going for that version. Maybe they respect her more than Marston did?

And her one loss, as you put it, against Superman and I would also say against Steppenwolf were so bad, that yes, it ruined for me her character. I could maybe forget about her loss of flying, but her disrespected showing against Superman is just too much. Maybe you like your alpha male Superman to be so damn powerful as to make the rest of the league a minor annoyance, but I don't. That was just a horrible showing, and later on when they take on Steppenwolf as a group and Supes comes in to save the day after saving a whole apartment complex to show up the Flash, is just the topping on the cake, at least for Superman fans.

And if you want to let a bad movie ruin some good movies for you, be my guest. The vast majority of publication history and popular perception has Superman at that power level compared to everyone else, so that wasn't the problem. The problem is the piss poor writing and directing that didn't deliver on a threat that required more than Superman to take care of it, which is what the best JL writers do. And Superman's movie future is in doubt whereas WW's is very much NOT, so...

Wonder Woman fighting soldiers has nothing to do with Superman. Her own creators put that in her comics all the time, because War vs. Peace is a major theme. Marston, Perez and her TV show spring to mind immediately.

[BiteTheBullet]

Since her sequel is starting production soon, she's got four. And he won't be in it, unless he shows up as Super Baby.



What does it matter if it is? Nobody is going to force you to watch it again, and it will have little relevance to the sequel. Do you let every bad story in the comic canon ruin good runs for you? It's the same thing.



She's got Ares, stood up to Doomsday, and has Cheetah in her sequel. She fought soldiers yes, but in the comics by her actual creator, she fought soldiers and costumed super villains. It would defeat the purpose of the film being set during a World War and the philosophy Ares represents if there were no soldiers and she had nothing to do with them. The Golden Age Cheetah was also a nut in a costume, and the filmmakers aren't going for that version. Maybe they respect her more than Marston did?





And if you want to let a bad movie ruin some good movies for you, be my guest. The vast majority of publication history and popular perception has Superman at that power level compared to everyone else, so that wasn't the problem. The problem is the piss poor writing and directing that didn't deliver on a threat that required more than Superman to take care of it, which is what the best JL writers do. And Superman's movie future is in doubt whereas WW's is very much NOT, so...

Wonder Woman fighting soldiers has nothing to do with Superman. Her own creators put that in her comics all the time, because War vs. Peace is a major theme. Marston, Perez and her TV show spring to mind immediately.

We will have to agree to disagree then.

[Sacred Knight]

To be perfectly honest, I really believe that what happened was that Whedon saw the original plans for Superman in the movie, and it made him give him some more super-feat moments over the others, as a way to compensate and what I'm sure others would argue was probably some overcompensation. But I mean, Superman was originally supposed to be essentially Injusticed. I think that's why he ended up getting the big boost he did with the rewrites.

I'm not saying that has to make anyone like the events any better or anything, but just a piece of potential insight of why certain scenes were written the way they were.

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah, there was no ideal way out of this situation. This goes back to them okaying Snyder doing JL before BvS came out and got the reaction it did.

A better way to do this would have been a threat level like Morrison's arc against Heaven in JLA. Superman gets to stop the moon from falling and wrestles an archangel. Which is dope as HELL, but at the same time, Wonder Woman got to take out one of their war chariots by herself and have an actual angel tell her it was a Biblicaly badass, and Flash and GL were the ones who ultimately resolved the situation.

This? This was an invasion plot that looked significantly less intimidating than the one he faced on his own in MoS. It was a joke.

[Gaelforce]

Okay, guys, let's get this thread back on topic. If you want to discuss Diana in the movies? Find or make a thread for it. This is a thread for discussing what folks want in a reboot (if it happens) of the DCU comics.

Thanks!