Cheetah and The Legion Of Doom

[WonderScott]

The team doesn't have any straight-up muscle, though. It'd be pretty awesome if one of the only female members of the team was also the heavy hitter.

No one hits heavier (or higher) than Giganta.

[marhawkman]

I lwould love to see Giganta and Star Sapphire, although is SS good these days?

]Yeah, hopefully the team eventually gets expanded. (I think Carol Ferris is on the side of the angels these days.)

There's only about a thousand Star Sapphires now.... you could use Yrra Cynril instead. Oh wait they did a dumb story where she went back to being Fatality.

[Vanguard-01]

There's only about a thousand Star Sapphires now.... you could use Yrra Cynril instead. Oh wait they did a dumb story where she went back to being Fatality.

And where they turned John Stewart into an inadvertent rapist. Because of course his character needed that!

[marhawkman]

And where they turned John Stewart into an inadvertent rapist. Because of course his character needed that!

An alternate theory is that the Durlans manipulated her into thinking it wasn't what she wanted. They forcibly separated her from the ring somehow.... But, we've never heard anything since... :/

[AmiMizuno]

No one hits heavier (or higher) than Giganta.

I'm curious where is Giganta in the comics? Do we know what causes her growth?

[WonderScott]

There's only about a thousand Star Sapphires now.... you could use Yrra Cynril instead. Oh wait they did a dumb story where she went back to being Fatality.

Interesting...I didn't follow that, but I'm for going back to Fatality. Too many female villains getting turned into heroes for my tastes. Especially in a hero's rogues gallery that has very few villainesses to begin with.

[WonderScott]

I'm curious where is Giganta in the comics? Do we know what causes her growth?

She last showed up in Wonder Woman, captured by Steve Trevor and being interrogated by him and Amanda Waller about some of the Fourth World artifacts she was hunting for Darkseid. She was actually written well in the scene, with a little bit of attitude and being shown to be competent. I think Amanda then absorbed her into a Suicide Squad, but I didn't read that.

In DCnU and Rebirth, we've never gotten a proper story with her or how she obtained her abilities or if she has metahuman size changing abilities that I've read or that we've discussed here on the boards.

Regardless, I'd love to see Doctor Doris Zeul get played up as much as Giganta. She needs a decent origin tale and more depth to her character. I don't mind her as giant heavy hitter, but I'd love to see her being portrayed just as menacing as a mad doctor of biology or something along those lines.

I'm longing for the quartet of Diana's devious doctors (Doctor Poison, Doctor Psycho, Doctor Cyber, and Doctor Doris Zeul) to get together, interact with one another, and thwart Diana.

[Nyssane]

She last showed up in Wonder Woman, captured by Steve Trevor and being interrogated by him and Amanda Waller about some of the Fourth World artifacts she was hunting for Darkseid. She was actually written well in the scene, with a little bit of attitude and being shown to be competent. I think Amanda then absorbed her into a Suicide Squad, but I didn't read that.

In DCnU and Rebirth, we've never gotten a proper story with her or how she obtained her abilities or if she has metahuman size changing abilities that I've read or that we've discussed here on the boards.

Regardless, I'd love to see Doctor Doris Zeul get played up as much as Giganta. She needs a decent origin tale and more depth to her character. I don't mind her as giant heavy hitter, but I'd love to see her being portrayed just as menacing as a mad doctor of biology or something along those lines.

I'm longing for the quartet of Diana's devious doctors (Doctor Poison, Doctor Psycho, Doctor Cyber, and Doctor Doris Zeul) to get together, interact with one another, and thwart Diana.

The New 52 version experimented on herself to cure her of a fatal illness if I remember correctly. I guess she ended up curing herself AND giving herself superhuman powers. It was in the Pandora series... I'll have to reread that some time.

[WonderScott]

The New 52 version experimented on herself to cure her of a fatal illness if I remember correctly. I guess she ended up curing herself AND giving herself superhuman powers. It was in the Pandora series... I'll have to reread that some time.

Ah, thanks Nyssane. I didn’t keep up with the events in Pandora.

[kjn]

Interesting...I didn't follow that, but I'm for going back to Fatality. Too many female villains getting turned into heroes for my tastes. Especially in a hero's rogues gallery that has very few villainesses to begin with.

Wonder Woman isn't that bad, compared to a few of the others. After all, she has Doctor Poison, and Giganta, and Cheetah; at times also Hera and Circe. I can't think of a single female villain for Superman (not saying there aren't any; just that none has crossed my admittedly high threshold for notability).

But the recent dynamic of female villains becoming more sympathetic and turning into anti-villains, anti-heroes, or heroes with issues is an interesting one. One factor here is that for a long time, only evil women were allowed to be sexy and seductive. Thus Catwoman and later Poison Ivy, or Circe for Wonder Woman. But the archetypes the creators choose to draw on were not really evil in nature. Catwoman is the classic cat burglar, and both Poison Ivy and Circe draw on the original Circe archetype that has developed and changed sine classical time. In fact, I'd argue that Poison Ivy is a better Circe character than Wonder Woman's Circe.

So I think that due to changes in society, feminism, and gender roles, many of the old female villains simply didn't make sense as true villains anymore. I also think it would make for a fascinating long-form analysis.

[marhawkman]

Interesting...I didn't follow that, but I'm for going back to Fatality. Too many female villains getting turned into heroes for my tastes. Especially in a hero's rogues gallery that has very few villainesses to begin with.

When she first showed up to menace Kyle Rayner she was a cool villain. But the more times she got used... the more I wanted to give her a hug and try to make her feel better. :/

Then this happened and I felt ecstatic joy:
tumblr_m3h5zfpBNB1qhe5gxo1_1280.jpg

Some people said it felt "out of character".... except... was it? What did Yrra do the first time she met Kyle Rayner? She spent quite a while dancing with him in a nightclub. No sneak attack, no sniping him from the shadows, she had fun dancing with him(before trying to kill him obviously.
fatality1-2.jpg

When John Stewart was crippled in a wheelchair... well that scene was REALLY interesting... She talked about how he was crippled by GUILT, not by injury, (while stripping naked) and how she wished he'd visited her earlier so that they would have had time for "physical contact".

Her first costume was lame and nearly identical to what Carol Ferris wore, but then they redesigned it to fit her character better:
Fatality-04.jpg
That one is awesome!

Also... she'd been separated from her ring after conversion. Nothing happened. One of those she voluntarily took it off. So the idea that the ring was controlling her doesn't make sense.

[WonderScott]

Wonder Woman isn't that bad, compared to a few of the others. After all, she has Doctor Poison, and Giganta, and Cheetah; at times also Hera and Circe. I can't think of a single female villain for Superman (not saying there aren't any; just that none has crossed my admittedly high threshold for notability).

But the recent dynamic of female villains becoming more sympathetic and turning into anti-villains, anti-heroes, or heroes with issues is an interesting one. One factor here is that for a long time, only evil women were allowed to be sexy and seductive. Thus Catwoman and later Poison Ivy, or Circe for Wonder Woman. But the archetypes the creators choose to draw on were not really evil in nature. Catwoman is the classic cat burglar, and both Poison Ivy and Circe draw on the original Circe archetype that has developed and changed sine classical time. In fact, I'd argue that Poison Ivy is a better Circe character than Wonder Woman's Circe.

So I think that due to changes in society, feminism, and gender roles, many of the old female villains simply didn't make sense as true villains anymore. I also think it would make for a fascinating long-form analysis.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of Diana in this instance, more Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, Spider-Man, and others that lack female adversaries. Absolutely agree with you regarding societal changes and how initial villainess motivations don't necessarily make the grade anymore, but I'd still like to see them get new additional characterizations or motivations to make them foes for their heroes.

Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Killer Frost, Emma Frost, Maxima, Fatality, and more never seem to stay evil for long.

I would read that analysis in a heartbeat!

[WonderScott]

When she first showed up to menace Kyle Rayner she was a cool villain. But the more times she got used... the more I wanted to give her a hug and try to make her feel better. :/

Then this happened and I felt ecstatic joy:
tumblr_m3h5zfpBNB1qhe5gxo1_1280.jpg

Some people said it felt "out of character".... except... was it? What did Yrra do the first time she met Kyle Rayner? She spent quite a while dancing with him in a nightclub. No sneak attack, no sniping him from the shadows, she had fun dancing with him(before trying to kill him obviously.
fatality1-2.jpg

When John Stewart was crippled in a wheelchair... well that scene was REALLY interesting... She talked about how he was crippled by GUILT, not by injury, (while stripping naked) and how she wished he'd visited her earlier so that they would have had time for "physical contact".

Her first costume was lame and nearly identical to what Carol Ferris wore, but then they redesigned it to fit her character better:
Fatality-04.jpg
That one is awesome!

Also... she'd been separated from her ring after conversion. Nothing happened. One of those she voluntarily took it off. So the idea that the ring was controlling her doesn't make sense.

I loved Yrra when she premiered and I don't begrudge an evil character who reforms and their story. I just wish some heroes had as healthy a roster of villainesses to thwart them as they do villains. Creators and editors need to go out of their way to consciously make it happen.

[marhawkman]

I loved Yrra when she premiered and I don't begrudge an evil character who reforms and their story. I just wish some heroes had as healthy a roster of villainesses to thwart them as they do villains. Creators and editors need to go out of their way to consciously make it happen.

Right, but it needs to make sense for them to stay a villain. Yrra's story is so tragic you feel sorry for her instead of anger. She wanted revenge because her parents(and the rest of her race) died. That's... not much of a motive for being a supervillain. The only reason it worked at all was because she blamed John Stewart(and by extension the Green Lantern Corps).... even though John wasn't REALLY the reason for it. He was trying to save the people of Xanshi. John blamed himself, but mostly because he realized that he'd needed(but refused) the help of Martian Manhunter. What destroyed it? a Blink bomb... Apokaliptian tech.

In hindsight... why doesn't she hate the New Gods?

[kjn]

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of Diana in this instance, more Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, Spider-Man, and others that lack female adversaries. Absolutely agree with you regarding societal changes and how initial villainess motivations don't necessarily make the grade anymore, but I'd still like to see them get new additional characterizations or motivations to make them foes for their heroes.

Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Killer Frost, Emma Frost, Maxima, Fatality, and more never seem to stay evil for long.

Spider-Man has Black Cat, with a similar relation between them as Batman and Catwoman. I'm not really that familiar with the other characters. But if we look at Catwoman and Poison Ivy, their rehabilitation is long, drawn-out, and gradual—I'd say it is exactly the type of character development that usually is lacking in comics. That is more dramatically satisfying than retcons that add new motivations or changes their character by fiat. But running the process in the other direction should also be a possibility: taking a heroic or mostly heroic character and moving them towards being a villain.

If we look at Maxima, she's simply "a woman scorned" from what I can read on Wikipedia. While not necessarily unrealistic in and of itself (jealousy and wounded pride are powerful emotions), it is a stereotype that is applied to women, while it's mostly scorned men who hurt or kill women.

Personally, I'd like superhero comics to develop a bit more of moral complexity, where the focus is less on good versus evil but rather conflicting interests. To take a trivial example, Poison Ivy can just as easily be an antagonist to Lex Luthor as to Bruce Wayne. Or take Hiketeia, with its conflict between Wonder Woman's compassion and Batman's authority-based view of justice. Something similar ran through the relation between Catwoman and Batman in Brubaker's run.