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  1. #181
    Incredible Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angrel-San View Post
    The hell?

    Cyclops pre Bendis was amazing. He is easily one of the best fictional characters there is.

    And is easy to hold that point of view when your favorite character is the Gary Stu of the Marvel Universe and the symbol of "perfection" and everyone must adore him. Trying to speak to other fanbases from that angle is actually not productive, especially when said character is the nemesis/rival of the other character and one of the major reasons why that character is having a hard time.

    I don't mind Cyclops haters or Steve lovers personally but let's call a spade a spade, please!!!
    No one is saying anyone has to adore anyone - it's a free country. What I'm saying is a) hating a fictional character is futile and a waste of energy b) what constitutes 'best' is subjective and c) you get more accomplished with honey than you do vinegar. It's not Steve's fault he's been pitted against Cyclops now is it? Steve out-dates Cyclops by over twenty years! Fun fact, Cyclops and Steve have a creator in common, Jack Kirby. I seriously doubt Jack ever intended for them to be enemies. Especially as, from Jack's own mouth, Steve was his self-insert. He has legit said in interviews that Steve Rogers is himself, a poor, scrawny artist from the lower east side of New York who went on to be a WW2 hero. You know what else Jack Kirby said:

    Since I’ve matured, since the war itself–I’ve always been a feisty guy, but since the war itself, there are people that I didn’t like, but I saw them suffer and it changed me. I promised myself that I would never tell a lie, never hurt another human being, and I would try to make the world as positive as I could. ~ Jack Kirby
    And Jack wrote Steve like that, too. Cap was not created to represent the darker parts of humanity, he was invented to represent the light. If you don't like that, fine, but don't be a fly in the ointment of those who do. There is nothing wrong with a classic hero archetype. Just because you prefer anti-heroes doesn't mean that everyone does or has to. Like what you like, no one is saying you can't, just be respectful, man.

  2. #182
    Incredible Member Angrel-San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    No one is saying anyone has to adore anyone - it's a free country.
    I meant in universe.

    Also, Cyclops is a hero, not an anti hero.

    Punisher is an antihero, Magneto is an antihero. Cyclops is not in that mold.

    Read AvX: Consequences for a small but great sample of who Cyclops is. Great aftermath POV.

  3. #183
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    Carol Danvers during Civil War II.

    I know a lot of people were holding the idiot ball in this event but dear god she held on to it.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Yeah, Marvel really did need a wake-up call, from Avengers and X-Men fans alike, so I do sympathize with all of we readers, no matter which character is preferred. It just seems that they keep trying to recreate the success of the original Civil War story by continuously pitting all of their heroes against each other event after event after event but it's had the opposite effect. It's actually alienating readers who are just plain sick of it, because in the process of creating 'sides' they've taken away many of the aspects of the characters that are likable (and recognizable). Plus it made fandom a battle ground and really, super unpleasant, which also causes interest to wan. It worked the first time because of the drama associated with shock value. But shock value works once, then loses it's edge. The writers and editors are entirely accountable for that. We'll see if the new EIC can manage to fix it. The April numbers were promising.
    So that is a greenlight to attack other fanbases? Including harassment, plotting to boycott books, chase folks out of stores, verbally abuse staff and so on?

    It doesn't WORK and ends up hurting the harasser more.

    I don't know, complaining seemed to work for Hal Jordan fans
    Not really it cost them John Stewart fans. Sales especially trades show more interest in Jessica & Simon than Hal's book. Hal's book is under performing. A lot of folks don't want to read about him despite what Dc thinks.

    Cassandra Cain & Stephanie Brown fans-they showed you how to do it. They did NOT go after Babs Gordon, Duke or any other Bat character. They held MANAGEMENT accountable. Guess who got the hint?
    And those fans had to put up with WORST than any Marvel fan. Edited out of books even low sellers and called toxic.

    As bad as it has been for many characters of Marvel-it never got that bad to be called toxic.

    You want to know how you stop an EVENT?

    You don't BUY it.

    You don't buy stealth Storm books using Black Panther's name.
    You don't buy hero versus hero round 2
    You don't buy Nazi Capt America
    You don't buy killer mutant clouds stories.

    Marvel only does what the public generally wants. We keep hearing this we are tired of events but those event top the charts almost every time. Same with Batman and Logan.

    I might miss out on someone getting killed in those events but at least I didn't CONTRIBUTE to making money.

  5. #185
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    Pretty much any character can be written well. There are very few that I'd consider completely irredeemable.

    Deadpool is painful when written badly. Duggan has done a good job with the character (partly because he's deepened the character's emotional side, while de-emphasising the humour), but in guest appearances Deadpool is almost uniformly awful.

    Venom/any other symbiote is not my cup of tea. I gave the new Venom #1 a chance and it wasn't quite so bad as Costa's run, but not sure if I'll stick with it.

    Carol Danvers sucks. Please, stop trying to push her. No one cares.

    X-23 is boring. Sabertooth has been written well in the past, but is boring as hell post-Axis.

    Might make some enemies with this one, but Groot is such a stupid character and should be replaced with something more creative.

    Kamala Khan is not outright bad, but over-rated and not in any way unique.

    Vision. I will never buy a Vision book in my life. There is no way for any writer to make Vision interesting. Same story with Doctor Strange. Just not interested at all.

  6. #186

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    I guess that I'm confused. what is the issue with Cyclops? when did he become unpopular? he's so far down on the list of characters who can legitimately be hated, that I'm surprised to even see his name in here. want an x-character to hate? how about Quentin Quire or Cassandra Nova?
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I guess that I'm confused. what is the issue with Cyclops? when did he become unpopular? he's so far down on the list of characters who can legitimately be hated, that I'm surprised to even see his name in here. want an x-character to hate? how about Quentin Quire or Cassandra Nova?
    Honestly the times I have not read much of Cyclops but the stuff I have read he comes off as a big jerk. And him being with Emma Frost a character I cannot stand does not help.

  8. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    Things happen between the jail time and the WCA time. Egghead's accomplices abducted Hank in the middle of his trial, forced him to work for Egghead again, but Hank, having now overcome his manic phase (as it happens with BPD) managed to defeat Egghead. Clint saved Hank's life by shooting Egghead while he was trying to kill Hank. Then Hank left New-York for a while and went to work in a private lab somewhere in the mid-west, and we didn't see him for a couple of years after that.

    After those few years, he went to see Clint and the WCA, and Clint offered him a spot, as Hank and he had always been good friends.
    Clint Barton turned on his wife for letting a villain die. you telling me that Clint, whose abusive dad beat he and his mother, wouldn't have had a strong reaction to Hank hitting Jan? it was such a misfire that Chuck Austen obsessed about it until he got into a position to write the Avengers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    And it's not "illness". It's a real illness. A real-life illness.
    it's a real life illness now that they need to explain away him giving Jan a black eye. find me evidence of it prior to Secret Invasion. they threw bipolar community under the bus by making Pym their comic book representation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    I really wonder why you seem to imply that Hank didn't take responsibilities for what he had done.
    I wasn't intending to imply anything. but, if you want to have this discussion, he made a pretty clear attempt at escaping consequences when he put that gun to his own head. he also, to Jan's horror, returned to the Yellowjacket identity. he's also stated outloud that he resents being judged for something that wasn't "that bad."

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    He literally spent years trying to atone for what he had done, he'd still be doing it if he weren't dead. Jan forgave him a long time ago, even before Busiek's run, when they were in the WCA together. What Johns and Austen wrote later on contradicts everything every writer has written before them.
    their writing isn't any less relevant that what came before. you give it weight because it fits your narrative. I say that the WCA contradicts the events of Yellowjacket's Fall. it was entirely unrealistic and done because they wanted to treat Hank the big hero. hard to do that with Janet holding a grudge.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  9. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeb View Post
    When Henry was part of WCA, he pretty much chucked the superhero montra. After an encounter with Whirlwind, Pym severely questioned his self-worth and was about to shoot himself when Firebird ended up talking him out of it and talking to him about the person he needed to be. After this, Pym redefined himself as Dr.Pym, scientific adventurer, in regular street clothes.
    the doctor who look and the red jumpsuit were costumes. all he did was use another aspect of his power on missions with the west coast avengers. Simon Williams sometimes just uses his given name. doesn't mean that he chucked the superhero mantra either.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  10. #190
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    I will say this when it comes to hating a character I am always willing to change my mind about a character. There are both DC and Marvel characters I did not like until I read the right story.

  11. #191

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    Eddie Brock/Venom. I don't like the way he was turned into an "anti-hero" and presented as more moral and more powerful than Spider-Man. Haven't bought a single mini/ongoing featuring that character. No thanks on the current revival.

  12. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by reni344 View Post
    I will say this when it comes to hating a character I am always willing to change my mind about a character. There are both DC and Marvel characters I did not like until I read the right story.
    and that's how you should do it. if I come across a character that I loathe, I try to study research them/look for depictions of them that I do like. I used to hate Wendell Vaughn and Daimon Hellstrom. I got over it, several backissues later.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  13. #193
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudman View Post

    Vision. I will never buy a Vision book in my life. There is no way for any writer to make Vision interesting.
    Not even the Tom King book?

    -Pav, who literally marvelled at it...
    2019 Marvel Monthly Buys: Superior Spider-Man Runaways Absolute Carnage: Lethal Protectors Silver Surfer: Black Death's Head House of X Powers of X Contagion

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  14. #194

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    Vision was likable in live-action. he didn't seem as lifeless as he does in the books sometimes.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  15. #195
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    Clint Barton turned on his wife for letting a villain die. you telling me that Clint, whose abusive dad beat he and his mother, wouldn't have had a strong reaction to Hank hitting Jan? it was such a misfire that Chuck Austen obsessed about it until he got into a position to write the Avengers.
    Well, I'm not saying anything, I read the issues and Clint did stand by Hank. He was mad that no one was lifting a finger to help Hank out while he was in jail.

    And obsessing over a comic book character for 25 years until one can write them and roll them in the dirt is ... slightly disturbing, to say the least.


    it's a real life illness now that they need to explain away him giving Jan a black eye. find me evidence of it prior to Secret Invasion. they threw bipolar community under the bus by making Pym their comic book representation.
    All his behavior prior to the slap was textbook example of someone slipping into a manic state. I have a friend who's a psychologist (and a HUGE Wasp fan) and she told me it was there, plain to see. Now I'm not an expert, but from what I read, his behavior seemed typical, and he has been written that way for decades, alternating between hyped-Pym and depressed-Pym, with longer stable episodes in between. I personally thought it was brilliant on Humphries' part to acknowledge that. Besides, Hank has often been described as having psychological issues. Humphries just put a name to it.

    I wasn't intending to imply anything. but, if you want to have this discussion, he made a pretty clear attempt at escaping consequences when he put that gun to his own head. he also, to Jan's horror, returned to the Yellowjacket identity. he's also stated outloud that he resents being judged for something that wasn't "that bad."
    Wow... I can't even... I think I'll just ignore this...

    And you'll have to show me (or tell me) when he said that wasn't "that bad" because from memory, I've always read him saying this was the worst thing he ever did.

    their writing isn't any less relevant that what came before. you give it weight because it fits your narrative. I say that the WCA contradicts the events of Yellowjacket's Fall. it was entirely unrealistic and done because they wanted to treat Hank the big hero. hard to do that with Janet holding a grudge.
    Maybe it does fit my narrative, but it also fitted the narrative of the writers. WCA doesn't contradict the YJ fall, since it was a story about a broken man rising up and taking back control of his life.
    Last edited by Mary Jay; 05-14-2018 at 06:26 PM.
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

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