Characters you hate.

[Danileriver23]

Is Cyclops a hypocrite? Oh really?
Did you ever read:
- Avengers/Thunderbolts
- Civil War
- Avengers: The Children's Crusade
- AvX
- Secret Empire

Man, Captain America is the Mister Hypocrisy.

All Marvel characters are constantly thrown under the bus so that the Saint Captain America play the Marvel's Jesus Christ.

Tony Stark
Moonstone, Songbird, Clint Barton and the Thunderbolts
Cyclops
...

These are just some victims of the Captain Fascist.

I don't see how Civil War AvX or secret Empire (didn't read the other ones) make captain America fascist.

Civil War- fighting for civil liberties of heroes against a pseudo fascist regime.
AvX - Trying to prevent a planet destroying cosmic force of nature from blowing up the planet
Secret Empire - He wasn't even there until the end, it was an evil clone, who he beat in the end.

AvX is the point that really solidified my disdain for Cyclops. I can admit that the Avengers probably didn't come to the x-Men in the most passive way, but the fate of the whole planet is on the line and instead of working with the avengers to fix it he says "Nah, my girlfriend used to use tat bird, so I know best. Im gonna shoot you now" which led to him killing his father figurealmost destroying the planet. And when it was all said and done, Scott was STILL being an *******, as oppose to Captain America who recognized he had made mistakes, and then formed the unity squad to try to bring humans, mutants, and inumans together as a symbol of peace and unity...you know, like all good fascists.

The truly sad part though is that I would LOVE Cyclops as a villain (the same way I enjoyed stevil Rogers) as an old school magneto type of character, but no. We just got a mopey emo scott for a few years under bendis until he essentially died off panel.

[Danileriver23]

Beast is has been suffering from miscasting since his creation. He doesn't belong on a super-team, he belongs in his own lone wolf anti-hero title. Really I'm talking about a re-imagining of the Beast design as a totally different character (Hank McCoy's personality isn't the first I'd choose, though "geneticist turned into a superhuman beast by his own experiments" is a pretty good hook), fighting crime, on the run from the law, persecuted by society, trying to find a cure and not Hulk out, etc.

I like the idea of beast, but man, he has had it ROUGH the past few years. I blame that more on poor writing and editorial than the character though.

[Sutekh]

Wolverine. I was 15 once and loved Wolverine like everyone other 15 year old boy. The older I got, the less I liked him. Now I see him as a hypocritical little pseudo-rebel manlet who never did anything truly controversial in his entire life.

When I was that age, it was the Claremont/Byrne era, and Logan was a blushing stammering fool around Mariko, while Scott was banging the hottest woman in the X-verse, that *everybody* (including Logan, and even the creepy old Professor) was lusting after.

So my teenage years were spent wanting to be old one-eye, who'd been hooking up with Jean since his teens, and even after Jean, bounced around from amazing woman to amazing woman (Lee Forrester, Madelyne Pryor, was Colleen Wing a thing?), and never seemed to spend a night in a cold bed, while Logan honestly seemed like a forty-year-old virgin.

Many years have passed since then, and Logan's backstory has gotten longer (turns out he wasn't a forty-year-old-anything!), and he no longer is anything like the blushing virgin who couldn't look at Mariko without getting all bashful, having apparently had so many lovers in the blank spots in his memory that he has entire *squads* of children (most of which he's apparently killed, because, of course he has...).

Or that could be, just, y'know, my opinion, man.

Ha!

Interesting points on the Cap/Cyke stuff.

It feels like writers regard hyper-competent leader-types as 'boring' if they don't have some controversy, and so they each add a bit of controversy to Steve, Scott, Professor X, Batman, Reed Richards, etc. and it just piles up and piles up until the character is so weighed down with this stuff that was meant to season someone regarded as 'boring' that all you've got left is a mountain of crappy things they've done, and no visible remnants of the character that people in-universe are supposed to respect and follow.

It's one of the reasons why I cringe when people call characters like Colossus 'boring,' because that just seems like begging for some writer to try and make him more 'interesting' by turning him into some grimdark edgelord.

[Sutekh]

Doctor Druid.

Aw. He's so fun! He's an overweight balding middle-aged man with the 'special' personality of an Emma Frost (or Karla Sofen).

He's as non-traditional as a superhero can be, surrounded by impossibly fit people who could be professional underwear models, and who mostly seem immune to things like male pattern baldness or even *aging,* and can apparently eat anything they want without consequences (including oceans of mead for Thor, and living almost entirely on Scotch, for years, for Tony, while still remaining inexplicably fit) and his snark is delightfully bitter and bitchy, unlike the more harmless quips and banter of people like Spider-Man and Hawkeye.

But I'm with you on Gilgamesh. Ugh.

[JQP]

When I was that age, it was the Claremont/Byrne era

Claremont/Romita Jr, here. That takes me back. I was actually 12, because I remember the first X-Men comic I bought; Uncanny X-Men 188, and that was in 1984.

It feels like writers regard hyper-competent leader-types as 'boring' if they don't have some controversy

It's become quite obvious to me that the drama of idiots is far more fascinating to writers than the drama of competent people. It does make a kind of sense - smart people don't live like the people on Jerry Springer. The Walking Dead is my iconic example. Five years of being slaughtered by zombies and they still haven't tried the buddy system or rally points.

[Michael Watkins]

Aw. He's so fun! He's an overweight balding middle-aged man with the 'special' personality of an Emma Frost (or Karla Sofen).

He's as non-traditional as a superhero can be, surrounded by impossibly fit people who could be professional underwear models, and who mostly seem immune to things like male pattern baldness or even *aging,* and can apparently eat anything they want without consequences (including oceans of mead for Thor, and living almost entirely on Scotch, for years, for Tony, while still remaining inexplicably fit) and his snark is delightfully bitter and bitchy, unlike the more harmless quips and banter of people like Spider-Man and Hawkeye.

But I'm with you on Gilgamesh. Ugh.

Whose fantasy is to be overweight, bald, and disliked by teammates and civilians alike? What fun am I missing?

[babyblob]

I have been reading alot of xmen and am just not a fan of th m. Wolverine was always way overrated to me and it felt like they were just trying to shove him down people's throats. Even more so when I read the few avengers issues that he was in.

[CuteClops]

I don't see how Civil War AvX or secret Empire (didn't read the other ones) make captain America fascist.

Civil War- fighting for civil liberties of heroes against a pseudo fascist regime.
AvX - Trying to prevent a planet destroying cosmic force of nature from blowing up the planet
Secret Empire - He wasn't even there until the end, it was an evil clone, who he beat in the end.

AvX is the point that really solidified my disdain for Cyclops. I can admit that the Avengers probably didn't come to the x-Men in the most passive way, but the fate of the whole planet is on the line and instead of working with the avengers to fix it he says "Nah, my girlfriend used to use tat bird, so I know best. Im gonna shoot you now" which led to him killing his father figurealmost destroying the planet. And when it was all said and done, Scott was STILL being an *******, as oppose to Captain America who recognized he had made mistakes, and then formed the unity squad to try to bring humans, mutants, and inumans together as a symbol of peace and unity...you know, like all good fascists.

The truly sad part though is that I would LOVE Cyclops as a villain (the same way I enjoyed stevil Rogers) as an old school magneto type of character, but no. We just got a mopey emo scott for a few years under bendis until he essentially died off panel.

For me, AvX was the last nail in the coffin of the Saint Steve Rogers.

The Secret Empire was the real representation of Steve Rogers. That's what he always does. A character who always have to control everything. Everyone should kneel down before Saint Steve, or shall be considered as terrorists, villains or just idiots.

And look, Scott was right about the Phoenix. He always was right, even if the Saint Steve tried to stop him and destroy everything, as he did with the Thunderbolts, as he always does.

And he had created Uncanny Avengers exactly because he wants to control the X-Men. He did it to get a rise out of Scott. That's why Alex Summers was called to 'lead' the team. Where was Steve Rogers when mutants were dying? He just doesn't care.


And where was Steve Rogers when the Phoenix came to the planet twice last year?
Where will Steve Rogers be when the Phoenix becomes an Avenger? Obviously, he'll try to control the Phoenix. That's what he always does, he tries to control everything. He's a hypocrite.

And no, Cyclops was never a villain. He fought against genocidal, fascists, and murderers of his people. including Avengers and Inhumans.
Even if Saint Steve did everything he could to stop it.

As I said, all Marvel characters are constantly thrown under the bus so that the Saint Captain America play the Marvel's Jesus Christ.
Steve Rogers is the worst character in Marvel Universe.
He should stay away from the X-Men.

[TheCape]

Ok, didn't read all Uncanny Avengers, but in what moment Steve said or implied that he did all that to ger a raise out of Scott, because as somebody that has read some of his solo runs, that doesn't sound like him at all.

[Ptrvc]

The problem with Colossus getting a rep is two-fold: (1)Marvel has already picked its iconic strongman, and his name is Hulk. That regulates any other contender to Not-Hulk status, and basically gives Piotr the Martian Manhunter problem. (2) Wolverine is the most popular X-Man, so even within the X-Men bubble, Colossus will often be the guy whose defeat proves that this is a job for Wolverine. Those are two colossal problems to overcome, overcoming both just aint happening.

A big problem for a lot of strong men types is that they're stuck on teams. Collosus could pick up a a boulder and toss it at the UFO, but he doesn't get to because that's the problem that the writer wrote for Cyclops to handle, or Storm maybe.

Meanwhile Hulk let's to do all the really cool strong man stuff because he doesn't have a team to split the page time with.

(Note, when Hulk is on a team he gets stuck with the same Big Guy Who Punches Things shtick.)

[Danileriver23]

For me, AvX was the last nail in the coffin of the Saint Steve Rogers.

The Secret Empire was the real representation of Steve Rogers. That's what he always does. A character who always have to control everything. Everyone should kneel down before Saint Steve, or shall be considered as terrorists, villains or just idiots.

And look, Scott was right about the Phoenix. He always was right, even if the Saint Steve tried to stop him and destroy everything, as he did with the Thunderbolts, as he always does.

And he had created Uncanny Avengers exactly because he wants to control the X-Men. He did it to get a rise out of Scott. That's why Alex Summers was called to 'lead' the team. Where was Steve Rogers when mutants were dying? He just doesn't care.


And where was Steve Rogers when the Phoenix came to the planet twice last year?
Where will Steve Rogers be when the Phoenix becomes an Avenger? Obviously, he'll try to control the Phoenix. That's what he always does, he tries to control everything. He's a hypocrite.

And no, Cyclops was never a villain. He fought against genocidal, fascists, and murderers of his people. including Avengers and Inhumans.
Even if Saint Steve did everything he could to stop it.

As I said, all Marvel characters are constantly thrown under the bus so that the Saint Captain America play the Marvel's Jesus Christ.
Steve Rogers is the worst character in Marvel Universe.
He should stay away from the X-Men.

So to address the points individually:

- Secret Empire was NOT steve rogers it was an alternate universe version.

- yes, scott was right about the phoenix making new mutants, but he threatened the entire planet and became a world destroying tyrant in the process. He killed professor x and was literally boiling oceans. Steve may have acted rash, but that's probably because he didn't know much other than the fact that the phoenix had already wrecked at least one planet and kicked novas ass

- He didn't control the x-men in the slightest. the team was completely lead by Havok. And by the time the cloud came into play, Steve was an old man, so there wasn't much he could do, not to mention his conern was EVERYONE not just him. Also, to that end, during that time, pretty much everyone in marvel was ignoring the threat of that cloud, so if you want to blame him, you have to blame everyone else.

- if Cyclops wasn't a villain, please explain how attempting to murder the avengers, allowing his teammates to sink a sovereign nation, killing professor x, and attempting to destroy the planet is not villainous (not to mention as the phoenix he was asserting as much 'control' as you say steve imposes on the world"

And one of this includes scott just being a dick like cheating on jean or, you know, sleeping with emma on her grave. That's not to say steve is above reproach, that's definitely not the case. Steve is no way a perfect character that always makes the right decision, but to criticize him for the things that Cyclops has done, sometimes to a worse degree is laughable.

[CryNotWolf]

Deadpool. His presence is always a detractive occurrence for me.

[Geralt of Rivia]

Deadpool. His presence is always a detractive occurrence for me.

A thousand times this, how I wish he wasn't a part of Remender's Uncanny X-Force.

I've avoided any other book with Deadpool involved so far.

[Raijin]

Captain Marvel and Scarlet Witch

[Angrel-San]

So to address the points individually:

- Secret Empire was NOT steve rogers it was an alternate universe version.

- yes, scott was right about the phoenix making new mutants, but he threatened the entire planet and became a world destroying tyrant in the process. He killed professor x and was literally boiling oceans. Steve may have acted rash, but that's probably because he didn't know much other than the fact that the phoenix had already wrecked at least one planet and kicked novas ass

- He didn't control the x-men in the slightest. the team was completely lead by Havok. And by the time the cloud came into play, Steve was an old man, so there wasn't much he could do, not to mention his conern was EVERYONE not just him. Also, to that end, during that time, pretty much everyone in marvel was ignoring the threat of that cloud, so if you want to blame him, you have to blame everyone else.

- if Cyclops wasn't a villain, please explain how attempting to murder the avengers, allowing his teammates to sink a sovereign nation, killing professor x, and attempting to destroy the planet is not villainous (not to mention as the phoenix he was asserting as much 'control' as you say steve imposes on the world"

And one of this includes scott just being a dick like cheating on jean or, you know, sleeping with emma on her grave. That's not to say steve is above reproach, that's definitely not the case. Steve is no way a perfect character that always makes the right decision, but to criticize him for the things that Cyclops has done, sometimes to a worse degree is laughable.

Funny that the "no more Avengers" said by Cyclops came after the P5 fixed the world but the Avengers didn't want that.

They didn't want to become the P5, that was an Avengers mess up. They however, made the best out of it and healed the planet and everything was good but no, Avengers and Steve can't have that because Steve Rogers doesn't trust them.

Isn't it funny that every time that something cool happens with a team that threatens the Avengers standing, Steve doesn't thrust them and has to shut them down? Because he always does that. He did it with the Thunderbolts, twice. Songbird herself didn't want to hear Steve's bullshit rethoric in her battle.

And killing Xavier and becoming Dark Phoenix was also because they were attacking him, making him lose control. All he wanted was to make Hope reignite and undo M-Day and he succeeded and was right in the process. Avengers messing with things they don't understand like the Phoenix, is one of the reasons things got so messy and out of control at the end.

And Cyclops was humble about it that even in jail, he accepted Tony to study him all he wanted because his fellow mutants would benefit of his analysis. He still remains a reasonable man. You talk to him like Tony did and respectfully instead of bullying him like Steve did on Utopia.

Even Wolverine, who wanted to kill Hope, doesn't blame Cyclops for killing Xavier. That was DP, not Scott, so that is a non point.